Lithium Confusion

[hpdrver]

I currently store my coach in my garage plugged into 30 amp service. My new coach came with lead acid batteries. The coach has a progressive dynamics PD 4060 charger in a mighty mini power center.

I am wanting to change batteries to lithium battle born batteries. Progressive dynamics has a replacement charger that outputs a constant 14.6 voltage but no 13.6 float voltage. Battle born told me not to leave this charger on constantly to avoid battery damage.

Progressive Dynamics also offers a complete new mighty mini power center with a output switch to change from lithium to lead acid. Since I store my coach plugged in it seems this might be better since lithium charger could be switched off and charger would go to lead acid float of 13.6. Each choice is about equal in price.

My question is how difficult are these choices to install and what choice is best. Thanks

Progressive Dynamics was shut down for Covid so no help there.

[3_tons]

Well since this thread was titled ‘Lithium confusion’ I believe that reports of this nature coming from authentic users with actual ‘in the field’ LFP experience are what provides the most value, and most practical importance. Interesting that you have a hybrid (i.e. genny load assist) type inverter and an impressive battery bank!!

Due to a sufficient amount solar and LFP’s faster recovery rate, I simply neutered the charge wire from the truck and so far have relied strictly upon solar. I came from having only two FLA sixers (due to space limitations) which for the most part served me reasonably well, except for their shallower DOD (depth of discharge, with associated voltage sag), and the occasional angst of trying to harvest as much as possible before sunset - depending on local, season and shading, sometimes a narrow comfort zone. With a few workarounds in mind, I still see FLA’s as a good overall value $$, though after having camped with the benefits of LFP’s (usable DOD, faster charge recovery, stable voltage, longevity), I’m now a “there ain’t no going back” convert, but that’s just me, and this quite naturally can be situation dependent. My only grief now is that the dang battery will most likely outlast me : ( lol

3 tons

[Itinerant1]

For brief usage of an hour or so I won't hesitate to run the air conditioner from the batteries but if it's going to be a long cool down and not able to move to a cooler location then the eu2200i will be used for the air conditioner and solar picking up load support from the hybrid inverter set at 15a incoming. This worked nicely last year at 6,500' elevation in 90f temps for the afternoon cool downs. I do turn the charger off on the inverter/ charger when doing this.

[3_tons]

“ No issues at running it from just the batteries with little assist from solar and will like it for brief cooldowns, maybe lunch breaks during a move that some cool air can be produced. The microair upgrade on the AC unit well worth it.”

Thanks for sharing your real-world experience, which ‘stats alone’ cannot quantify. Here in the high Nevada desert I can only echo your account. One nice thing about LiFePo4 is that for short durations (typically an hour or two), and thanks to only minor voltage sag, the a/c compressor start-ups are non-laborious, as if on grid power...We also run the keurig and the 900w microwave without a hitch, while the Honda 2200i stays put in its compartment...

With 200a LFP I seem to have stumbled across the sweet spot that compliments 11k Mach1 P.S. AC (with soft start), Xantrex ProSine 2.0 (4,500a surge for 5sec) and 440w of concurrent solar, Victron BMV-12 smart phone metering in a truck camper...All things considered (including latitude, and off-grid usages) power concerns have now been subordinated to more important OHV excursions.

3 tons

[pianotuna]

Itinerant1,

Thanks for the update!

[Itinerant1]

Itinerant1 wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:
@pianotuna I finally installed the micro-air 364 on to my Carrier Air V 15k air conditioner. I'm in campground hooked up to 50a service, completed the 5 learning cycles. It was interesting to watch the me-arc display in the ac input screen, the air conditioner fan would run for a couple minutes then I could see 3-4a load coming in for 60 +/- seconds then quickly climb to roughly 18a then settle at 14a.

Here are the test that I did. While still plugged into the pedestal I turned the load share down 15a, 10a, 5a and turning the air conditioner off for a couple minutes between each lowering and at no time did the ac unit stumble or did a red fault light show on the me-arc.

Then I disconnected the the power from the pedestal and connected it to the eu2200i generator setting the load support to 15a and 10a, same results no red fault light on the me-arc and no "overload" or stumble on the generator. Also I'm in tree cover/ overcast so little to no solar was helping.

I didn't try the ac unit on just batteries but I'll bet there shouldn't be a problem especially if solar is contributing. In a couple weeks when I'm back at boondocking I'll update those results.

Maybe with the lfp batteries that's the difference that I'm not getting the fault lights on the hybrid inverter or stumble in the ac unit or generator. 😉

Countinous from previous post,

Tried the 15k A/C unit from just batteries today to see if the fault light would show on the Me-Arc display from the hybrid inverter (seeing if I would have the same issue that Pianotuna said he had). No fault light and no stumble in the A/C at anytime.

99% SOC (13.3v before turning the A/C on)

From the me-arc display:
Inverter AC output 118v/ 60hz

Overcast/ pine forest (no visible sun)
Solar 180.7 watts
PV volts 35.7vdc
Batteries 13.1vdc (while A/C running)
8a charging from solar after turning A/C off

Initially turning it on the fan started and after 30 seconds the compressor started to spool up slowly, I could see the amps slowly climbing and max somewhere in the 190a range before settling down to 94a. So if I just use my minimum loads and the sun is shinning the solar panels will cover roughly 60-75a of the A/C load, balance from batteries would be 30ah +/- (6% SoC be depleted per hour)

Good to know now that during a moving day and taking a break for lunch that the air conditioner can be used from the batteries with no issues and not worry about dragging the eu2200i out.

I'll use my infrared laser thermometer to check connection and wires next time after some extended use.

Just a little update with no recorded data of the microair on the AC unit and the LFP batteries. Did a short move and dumped the tanks yesterday. Trailer was closed up for 3 hours and the inside temp was feeling warm at 82f (1600 hours). It was nice not having to hookup the generator for the air conditioner for a short cool down cycle. Ran the 15k AC unit for over an hour while setting up and winding down after the move till the inside colled down to 72f off the batteries. The sun was low in the sky so not alot of help from solar, when first turning it on it was drawing 60a, just before turning it off it was drawing 75a and used 11% of the batteries. No issues at running it from just the batteries with little assist from solar and will like it for brief cooldowns, maybe lunch breaks during a move that some cool air can be produced. The microair upgrade on the AC unit well worth it.

[pianotuna]

01tundra wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Freep wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Unfortunately I need -40. There is at least one LI chemistry that can do that--but nothing in a large format jar. Lithium titanate

Do you really need -40? Do you have no water in your rig, only ice?

-40 will kill Li batteries. I've boondocked at -37 c (-34 f). That temperature will also kill Li.

I've since found a battery chemistry called SiO2 which shares many of the attributes of Li. The differences that I'm aware of at weight (greater than a similar capacity lead acid) and the ability to be used and charged at -40. Some of the shared items are no sulphation, and zero maintenance. That means no more needing to get to 100% state of charge.

The SiO2 is about 1/2 the price of Li. It can "do" 900 amps for 5 seconds from a 100 amp jar, which I think is better than Li.

Cycle life is 2800 if you don't go below 50% soc, and 1500 if you go down to 20% soc.

Best of all, the SiO2 are sold in Canada. $600 ($450 usd) for 100 amp-hours. This is a competitive price with AGM.

Mount the batteries inside the trailer?

That won't help save LI when the RV is in storage.

[pianotuna]

Here is some more information on SiO2 jars

"Shari from Azimuth to answer your questions... The ones above are manufactured in China by a Canadian company, Soneil Electronics. Soneil has been around since 1994, but they made smaller size light traction SiO2 batteries for the healthcare and materials handling industries. It wasn't until a few years ago that they expanded into larger size deep cycle solar. RV, telecom and marine sizes. They haven't been that great at marketing so they are a best kept secret. Lead crystal / SiO2 batteries are currently being made by Betta Batteries(Australia), Green Rhino (Germany) and Soneil Electronics (Canada). I have attached some studies of lead crystal / SiO2 batteries for review. 🙂 So far, all the ones in the field are exceeding our expectations."

video https://youtu.be/ZFnjIodpI30

discharge to one volt https://youtu.be/O45eLd5YotM

[01tundra]

pianotuna wrote:

Freep wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Unfortunately I need -40. There is at least one LI chemistry that can do that--but nothing in a large format jar. Lithium titanate

Do you really need -40? Do you have no water in your rig, only ice?

-40 will kill Li batteries. I've boondocked at -37 c (-34 f). That temperature will also kill Li.

I've since found a battery chemistry called SiO2 which shares many of the attributes of Li. The differences that I'm aware of at weight (greater than a similar capacity lead acid) and the ability to be used and charged at -40. Some of the shared items are no sulphation, and zero maintenance. That means no more needing to get to 100% state of charge.

The SiO2 is about 1/2 the price of Li. It can "do" 900 amps for 5 seconds from a 100 amp jar, which I think is better than Li.

Cycle life is 2800 if you don't go below 50% soc, and 1500 if you go down to 20% soc.

Best of all, the SiO2 are sold in Canada. $600 ($450 usd) for 100 amp-hours. This is a competitive price with AGM.

Mount the batteries inside the trailer?

[pianotuna]

Freep wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Unfortunately I need -40. There is at least one LI chemistry that can do that--but nothing in a large format jar. Lithium titanate

Do you really need -40? Do you have no water in your rig, only ice?

-40 will kill Li batteries. I've boondocked at -37 c (-34 f). That temperature will also kill Li.

I've since found a battery chemistry called SiO2 which shares many of the attributes of Li. The differences that I'm aware of at weight (greater than a similar capacity lead acid) and the ability to be used and charged at -40. Some of the shared items are no sulphation, and zero maintenance. That means no more needing to get to 100% state of charge.

The SiO2 is about 1/2 the price of Li. It can "do" 900 amps for 5 seconds from a 100 amp jar, which I think is better than Li.

Cycle life is 2800 if you don't go below 50% soc, and 1500 if you go down to 20% soc.

Best of all, the SiO2 are sold in Canada. $600 ($450 usd) for 100 amp-hours. This is a competitive price with AGM.

[pianotuna]

Itinerant1,

What a WONDERFUL report. ty so much.

My bank was originally 875 amp-hours of Marine jars. This was chosen because I knew I wanted to run the block heater for 3 hours during temperatures in the -30 to -40 range.

Four years ago I moved to used telecom batteries--556 amp-hours. The Marines were 11 years old and I simply got tired of laying down in the snow to check electrolyte levels.

My solar does, best case, about 17 amps @ 12 volts (nominal). I'm sure the voltage sag on LI is not as great, but equally your solar farm is much larger than mine.

My air conditioner doesn't stumble--but the red light on the Magnum remote does raise its ugly head on the air conditioner starting from scratch when on the generator (eco on), or on just the inverter.

One interesting side bit of information. If the battery bank is depleted, with load support on, and input amps limited to 12 (on a 15 amp shore power connection), then that "limit" will be overridden, and the shore power breaker at the pedestal will trip if you exceed the rating on the breaker.

That happened when I was having the RV cleaned. My cleaner has me park the RV in front of her home. It was winter and I was running electric heaters. She plugged in the vacuum, and that was enough to cause the trip. Her husband reacted quite badly. You would have thought I had caused a whole subdivision to loose power.

[Freep]

pianotuna wrote:

Unfortunately I need -40. There is at least one LI chemistry that can do that--but nothing in a large format jar. Lithium titanate

Do you really need -40? Do you have no water in your rig, only ice?

[Itinerant1]

It certainly would appear that way that the lfp compared to Pianotuna batteries can handle it. I think Pianotuna said his battery bank was in the 900ah range (maybe I'm confusing that) compared to my 500ah.

[3_tons]

Well my Best ‘informed via real world experience’ guess is that there’s far less of a voltage sag issue when using the LiFePo4’s than with either shore or genny power, meaning easier on motor windings...JMO

3 tons

[Itinerant1]

Itinerant1 wrote:
@pianotuna I finally installed the micro-air 364 on to my Carrier Air V 15k air conditioner. I'm in campground hooked up to 50a service, completed the 5 learning cycles. It was interesting to watch the me-arc display in the ac input screen, the air conditioner fan would run for a couple minutes then I could see 3-4a load coming in for 60 +/- seconds then quickly climb to roughly 18a then settle at 14a.

Here are the test that I did. While still plugged into the pedestal I turned the load share down 15a, 10a, 5a and turning the air conditioner off for a couple minutes between each lowering and at no time did the ac unit stumble or did a red fault light show on the me-arc.

Then I disconnected the the power from the pedestal and connected it to the eu2200i generator setting the load support to 15a and 10a, same results no red fault light on the me-arc and no "overload" or stumble on the generator. Also I'm in tree cover/ overcast so little to no solar was helping.

I didn't try the ac unit on just batteries but I'll bet there shouldn't be a problem especially if solar is contributing. In a couple weeks when I'm back at boondocking I'll update those results.

Maybe with the lfp batteries that's the difference that I'm not getting the fault lights on the hybrid inverter or stumble in the ac unit or generator. 😉

Countinous from previous post,

Tried the 15k A/C unit from just batteries today to see if the fault light would show on the Me-Arc display from the hybrid inverter (seeing if I would have the same issue that Pianotuna said he had). No fault light and no stumble in the A/C at anytime.

99% SOC (13.3v before turning the A/C on)

From the me-arc display:
Inverter AC output 118v/ 60hz

Overcast/ pine forest (no visible sun)
Solar 180.7 watts
PV volts 35.7vdc
Batteries 13.1vdc (while A/C running)
8a charging from solar after turning A/C off

Initially turning it on the fan started and after 30 seconds the compressor started to spool up slowly, I could see the amps slowly climbing and max somewhere in the 190a range before settling down to 94a. So if I just use my minimum loads and the sun is shinning the solar panels will cover roughly 60-75a of the A/C load, balance from batteries would be 30ah +/- (6% SoC be depleted per hour)

Good to know now that during a moving day and taking a break for lunch that the air conditioner can be used from the batteries with no issues and not worry about dragging the eu2200i out.

I'll use my infrared laser thermometer to check connection and wires next time after some extended use.

[01tundra]

time2roll wrote:

01tundra wrote:
We are running a PD4655L Wildkat converter set to the li setting.

It charges at a constant 14.6V until our single 100AH BattleBorn battery reaches 100% SOC. It starts out pushing 55 amps and then tapers off as the SOC gets higher, once the battery reaches 100% SOC the amperage tapers of to almost zero (usually around 0.25A or so).

I let it sit disconnected from the converter somewhere around 70-80% SOC and then charge it before we leave for the next trip, it charges so fast that it's no issue at all.

If plugged in running the air conditioner do you disconnect the battery or let it float at 14.6 for the full week?

I leave the batteries disconnected at the master switch. No need for them being connected to the system while on shore power.