Will Honda 2000 supply MSH 3012's charger?

[outwestbound]

Hello. Looking to power my fifth wheel travel trailer for off grid boondocking using combo seeking a maximum reliance on solar and a minimum on generator. My goal is to carry, due to size and weight, the smallest generator necessary to bring an 800 amp hour AGM battery bank up to 100%. 

Magnum MSH 3012 has a 125A charger and the max charge rate is set to 80%; so max 100vdc I guess.

Magnum's manual says 18AAC input current is needed to operate at it's continuous rated output.

Honda 2000's max of 2.0kVA (16.67A) and continuous of 1.6kVA (13.3A) seems insufficient.

I don't understand if only 13.3A from the Honda will NEVER allow the Magnum to charge the batts to 100% OR whether the lower input to the Magnum will just take longer. (????)

If it just takes longer, I wonder how much longer. For example, if I'm down 150AH on the bank and have 3 rainy days with no meaningful contribution from solar, and crank up the Honda 2000, how effective/ practical will this be?

I'm aware that my max charge 80% setting limits the charge to a max of 100vdc, but have no idea what under powering the charger, if at all, will do.

I hope this makes sense. Thanks

[Itinerant1]

outwestbound wrote:

outwestbound wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:

outwestbound wrote:

time2roll wrote:
Sounds like you are doing just fine. Only thing better would be some lithium batteries 😉

The industry average cost curve makes them uneconomic in my opinion. I suspect RV turnover is a multiple of the breakeven, if one looks at the economic argument for lithium. I someone going to pay me their residual value when I sell my used RV every 4 years? It's laughable to think so, from what I know of the market.

I think if one is an avid hobbyist or has a material weight issue, then falling on the knife for $10,000 in lithium might make sense.

I think I'll pass.

$10,000 might stretching it more like $4,200 to equal what you have.;)
With what the AGMs cost maybe $2,000+ difference.

Maybe. I was recalling the pricing I did in like April 2016, but that was the total price, not the marginal difference. Perhaps lithium is more cost effective now. I think lithium was like 2.4X what I paid for the fullriver AGMs, but maybe I'm off.

Not naming companies, but I refreshed my quote from a year ago for a lithium bank with 480 usable at 80% (Victron batts), the controller, monitoring kit, wiring, shunt and labor at their average install rate (about 50 hours); $15,000. This is (2) 300AH Victron batteries.

I have no competency to install this stuff and have no access to better pricing, so a turn-key installed price is all I can access. If a home builder's customer asks "what does that window cost to add into that wall there", they are not asking the wholesale cost of the window. Instead, they are asking the 100% turn-key cost for the entire assembly and scope of work. I think folks need to be careful when talking about lithium, because the labor, accessories and parts are expensive.

The labor was about $6,200 and it's likely the materials could be had for less. If someone paid 85% of my quote on materials, and did the labor him/herself, then the total becomes $8,100. Big difference!

Outwestbound I was in the same boat as you when having the competence/ confidence of installing my own system so like you I did the samething of having a professional do it, Knowing that the cost would be offset by boondocking instead of paying to stay in campgrounds.


Using our previous 2 years (fulltiming) of rv campground cost it averages to $25.00 a day.
443 days of boondocking needed for return on solar.

Dispersed camping
2016 (4/16 - 12/31) 200 days
2017 (1/1 - 9/18) 260 days

Consecutive days dispersed camping as of September 18, 2017
Starting 12/23/16 - 269 days

[time2roll]

pianotuna wrote:
Li have issues with cold. I'd rather go to firefly or outback jars.

Not sure I like the memory function of the carbon foam. That full charge required to reset full capacity has me skeptical about how they would work full time off-grid.

[time2roll]

There are drop in replacement lithium batteries. Any handyman could swap it for you.

[outwestbound]

outwestbound wrote:

Itinerant1 wrote:

outwestbound wrote:

time2roll wrote:
Sounds like you are doing just fine. Only thing better would be some lithium batteries 😉

The industry average cost curve makes them uneconomic in my opinion. I suspect RV turnover is a multiple of the breakeven, if one looks at the economic argument for lithium. I someone going to pay me their residual value when I sell my used RV every 4 years? It's laughable to think so, from what I know of the market.

I think if one is an avid hobbyist or has a material weight issue, then falling on the knife for $10,000 in lithium might make sense.

I think I'll pass.

$10,000 might stretching it more like $4,200 to equal what you have.;)
With what the AGMs cost maybe $2,000+ difference.

Maybe. I was recalling the pricing I did in like April 2016, but that was the total price, not the marginal difference. Perhaps lithium is more cost effective now. I think lithium was like 2.4X what I paid for the fullriver AGMs, but maybe I'm off.

Not naming companies, but I refreshed my quote from a year ago for a lithium bank with 480 usable at 80% (Victron batts), the controller, monitoring kit, wiring, shunt and labor at their average install rate (about 50 hours); $15,000. This is (2) 300AH Victron batteries.

I have no competency to install this stuff and have no access to better pricing, so a turn-key installed price is all I can access. If a home builder's customer asks "what does that window cost to add into that wall there", they are not asking the wholesale cost of the window. Instead, they are asking the 100% turn-key cost for the entire assembly and scope of work. I think folks need to be careful when talking about lithium, because the labor, accessories and parts are expensive.

The labor was about $6,200 and it's likely the materials could be had for less. If someone paid 85% of my quote on materials, and did the labor him/herself, then the total becomes $8,100. Big difference!

[Itinerant1]

Delete

[outwestbound]

pianotuna wrote:
outwestbound,

I don't see how you could ruin AGM's with 960 watts of solar to maintain them. Do you full time in the RV?

I am full time. Back when I got the bank, the camper was being used pretty hard for camping, partying, bike trips with groups of people. Like some boats I've had in the past, stuff just gets broken with people in and out, randomly pushing buttons they see, etc. So in short, I figured abuse would result in a shorter AGM duty cycle.

But, I've been able to do better than I thought, so maybe they will last longer. Changing the controllers that you are aware of will help. I'm buying new controllers Monday and sticking them in. That will solve 75% of my issues, and take the charging up to the manufacturer's recs.

[pianotuna]

outwestbound,

I don't see how you could ruin AGM's with 960 watts of solar to maintain them. Do you full time in the RV?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

It's great to live in a free country. Ummm, unless the subject is politics. Juggling mechanical compromises makes life interesting. Doing so, on a starvation budget doubly so...

[outwestbound]

I looked as my old notes and I think I was high on cost. At that time, I was looking at the labor + material (turn key) installation of Victron product by AM Solar in Oregon. In early 2016, I just didn't see lithium as ready for prime time.

My 4 battery, DC 400-6 fullriver, 800AH AGM bank is in heated/coolled space. I paid $2,340, including 7% sales tax and I picked them up, at a golf cart place in Tampa, FL in March of 2016. When I bought the AGM bank, I anticipated it would last 4 years max, because I expected to abuse it due to my lack of knowledge and various people being in and out of the camper pushing every button they can find. I figured I'd learn about solar, etc. the hard way and when the AGM bank crapped out, I'd take another look at lithium in 2019.

Big companies are furiously mining lithium, but the reality is that very little production goes to uses like would be suitalbe for RVs, from my reading. Hence, I think lithium will remain crazy expensive, especially if the feds keep shoveling our tax dollars at the industry, in the form of tax credits, which raise prices due to over stimulated demand. Whether the tax credit investment pans out with a stabilized solar industry operating at rational costs on the other side of this current over stimulated frenzy has yet to be seen. Right now, a 30% credit program is an enormous crutch, that may or may not work. If a lower industry average cost curve does not result, the credit program will just have been a flash in the pan, as frankly, most federal efforts to manipulate markets end up representing.

Because of high turnover of RVs, I don't think recapturing a large expense in lithium makes sense. This reality, if true, negates the long breakeven times I've heard on buying large lithium banks for RVs, again, purely as an economic exercise strictly in an RV context.

There are nonmonetary aspects I suppose, plus people buy them just because they want them, just as they consume vacation trips to Europe, golf clubs and sail boats. But this concept that lithium is somehow an "investment" just seems ridiculous.

It is what it is. I may well go lithium in 2020, just cuz I want it.

[Itinerant1]

pianotuna wrote:
Li is unforgiving. Abuse it just once and you have an expensive dud on your hands. Keeping them warm at -30 would be problematic for storage. Does anyone know the self discharge rate for the LiFe format?

This is for my elite power solution gbs lithium not sure if all are the same.
How should LFMP Li-ion Batteries be stored ?
Our batteries have characteristics of very low self-leakage rate, ~ 3% per month (NOTE: Recent battery tests have shown that a partially charged battery may loose less than 5% per year), which allows batteries to be stored over extended period of time. Batteries are to be charged to 40-60% full and disconnect all loads before long term storage. Batteries should be stored in cool temperature environment. You should check cell voltages periodically, e.g. every month, to ensure proper voltage level. If any cell voltage drops to 3.0V or under, battery needs to be recharged.

If sense boards are left installed during storage the green led will cause a slight drain which roughly doubles the self-discharge rate which will necessitate checking cell voltages more often. A simple way to disconnect the sense boards is to remove the two screws from one side of the sense board and slide a piece of plastic or other non-conductive material between the battery terminal and sense board to disconnect it from the battery

[MrWizard]

Itinerant1 wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
My 675 ampHr AGM bank cost me $350
That's a long ways from the $4200 needed for an equivalent lithium bank

Maybe a portion of a converted salvaged Prius bank, for the right price, $1000 or less

I used what outwest said he has (800AH AGM; 4 (6) volt Fullriver DC-400-6s) internet price when I quickly searched was $500+/- each. Which would be 400ah usable at 50% = lithium 500ah of which 400ah 80% usable. Just trying to to be fare with cost.

So am i, one more battery $75, and my bank would be 810amphrs for total price of $425

Surplus Telcom AGM batteries are available at a great price
Surplus lithium? Not near as cost feasible yet
New lithium, way to pricey

And while i don't go snow camping
We do run into cold mornings
And running heaters from the lithium battery pack to warm it up so you can charge them, is only going to lower the SOC some more making the generator run time longer,
Better make sure the solar controller is cold temp shut off,
So Not charging on that cold sunny winter morning

With lead batteries you can wake up on a cold morning and charge them,
With lithium, if you some how run them way down and wake up on a cold morning, you can't charge them, until you warm them up, how long does that take, how do you do it
If they are way down ? What is running the heaters to warm them up
run the heaters on generator for a few hours then begin charging the batteries ?

I'm not anti lithium, but you have to have eyes wide open, brain wide awake, when considering all the ramifications

[pianotuna]

Li is unforgiving. Abuse it just once and you have an expensive dud on your hands. Keeping them warm at -30 would be problematic for storage. Does anyone know the self discharge rate for the LiFe format?

[outwestbound]

Itinerant1 wrote:

outwestbound wrote:

time2roll wrote:
Sounds like you are doing just fine. Only thing better would be some lithium batteries 😉

The industry average cost curve makes them uneconomic in my opinion. I suspect RV turnover is a multiple of the breakeven, if one looks at the economic argument for lithium. I someone going to pay me their residual value when I sell my used RV every 4 years? It's laughable to think so, from what I know of the market.

I think if one is an avid hobbyist or has a material weight issue, then falling on the knife for $10,000 in lithium might make sense.

I think I'll pass.

$10,000 might stretching it more like $4,200 to equal what you have.;)
With what the AGMs cost maybe $2,000+ difference.

Maybe. I was recalling the pricing I did in like April 2016, but that was the total price, not the marginal difference. Perhaps lithium is more cost effective now. I think lithium was like 2.4X what I paid for the fullriver AGMs, but maybe I'm off.

[Itinerant1]

Yes they do but installing in a trailer is a very feasible option if you have room. My front compartment has the heating duct which ends above the front compartment which I'll just add a duct to blow warm in there to raise it above freezing or some are putting aquarium/ reptile heaters under/ on the batteries for colder nights. It's only a problem below 32f to charge not use.