Lippert frames

[LVJJJ]

Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.

So, what is a Lippert frame?

[JBarca]

hvac wrote:


Not sure if this comes through.

https://m.imgur.com/account/apWebWrecker/images/HYxGWAm

It goes to an imgur fault page for me

[hvac]

gmw photos wrote:

hvac wrote:
All of you need to look at how ATC does the entire frame and floor. All welded aluminum. Its expensive, but in my opinion well done.

Getting into aluminium is a whole 'nuther game indeed. Both of my horse trailers and my equipment trailer are steel, but I've pulled and used AL horse trailers. I've looked them over carefully and for sure, the engineering/design is at least "somewhat different" than steel trailers.

I have chosen steel for various reasons, but for sure it can be done well out of AL.

Not sure if this comes through.

https://m.imgur.com/account/apWebWrecker/images/HYxGWAm

[Huntindog]

JBarca wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?

See here from June 2011. I still use it every campout. It has worked out well for me.

Ladder Rack Under Camper - (long lot's of pic's)

Thanks

John

Nicely done!

[JBarca]

Ralph Cramden wrote:

JBarca wrote:


I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html

You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.

Thanks for posting that link. Interestingly I think we have done some business with those guys in the past on something. I don't remember all of that stuff but my estimator will. I doubt you'll find any info on those MH beams in any bible, either printed or the net version. To me those are custom pieces. Maybe not so if you're a manufactured housing builder, but the website also seems to indicate they'll run those to order. I've got a fab guy I use for small stuff who used to be one of "the guys" at American Bridge. If it was made in the last 100 years and has published info he'll have it, or know where to get it lol. That's if he has not keeled over lately as he's about 85 but still going at it...I think.

On a side note reading through the company history, those WV guys may have been the inventors of the micro mini mill. Back in the day there were many here around Pittsburgh, not so much now days.

Hi Ralph, if by chance you can get any kind of info on these MH beams, I would be very interested in getting a copy etc. Your not going to find these in the Manual of Steel Construction...

The old guys who knew all this stuff... Yes, they are becoming fewer and fewer all the time. I'm getting closer to being in that category, retired but not quite close to his era.

I'm going to have to start looking close at the new campers on dealers lots for the welded H shape. I had not been looking for that so never paid too much attention. Now the new thing is 8" frame on 10,000# GVWR campers. I will never own one. 10" is the bare minimum in my book on anything in the 30 ft range. They keep cutting everything to the bare bones worse than they already were.

Thanks

John

[JBarca]

Huntindog wrote:
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?

See here from June 2011. I still use it every campout. It has worked out well for me.

Ladder Rack Under Camper - (long lot's of pic's)

Thanks

John

[spike99]

Many trailer makers build to minimum specs and nothing more. Anything above the minimum (whether it be frames, axles sizing, tires, etc) is lost dollars from their pocket. IMO, it's always better to over build instead of meeting minimum specs. Especially if being pulled down the road - where others are at safety risk as well...

When I build trailer frames, I use gussets in every inside corner. Over build, yes. Do I see gussets on may "factory bolt" trailers (including RV and utility trailers)? NO. If you love the trailer but hate its factory frame, take to a welding shop and get them to "improve" factory build - like using gussets. Might be worth it - if you plan to keep your trailer for 8+ years (like I do).

And if getting frame work done, replace its factory brake wiring with much better STAR design wiring using 10 gauge upgrade as well. All of my trailers with brakes have STAR design wiring and its much better than factory as well.

[gmw_photos]

hvac wrote:
All of you need to look at how ATC does the entire frame and floor. All welded aluminum. Its expensive, but in my opinion well done.

Getting into aluminium is a whole 'nuther game indeed. Both of my horse trailers and my equipment trailer are steel, but I've pulled and used AL horse trailers. I've looked them over carefully and for sure, the engineering/design is at least "somewhat different" than steel trailers.

I have chosen steel for various reasons, but for sure it can be done well out of AL.

[hvac]

All of you need to look at how ATC does the entire frame and floor. All welded aluminum. Its expensive, but in my opinion well done.

[Ralph_Cramden]

Huntindog wrote:
John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?

Fold down ramp / support for the tote tank?

[gmw_photos]

Ralph Cramden wrote:
....snip...

It's neither here nor there, but I once had a long conversation with a broker over drinks about what Lipperts buyers look for when they go out shopping materials.....I won't go deeply into it, but will just say they apparently go looking for what others are not looking for, if you get my drift.

I've virtually no knowledge of all this stuff since I was just an end user of various material being a machinist. But to your above point, I had heard from a supplier when I was still working ( I retired in 2010 ) that one of the problems the industry was seeing was a lot of scrap iron coming out of India was of alloys that were at times inappropriate and substandard. Old scrapped ships etc. No idea how true it might have been, but when it comes to product out of places like that and china, my guess is anything is possible.

[Ralph_Cramden]

JBarca wrote:


I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html

You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.

Thanks for posting that link. Interestingly I think we have done some business with those guys in the past on something. I don't remember all of that stuff but my estimator will. I doubt you'll find any info on those MH beams in any bible, either printed or the net version. To me those are custom pieces. Maybe not so if you're a manufactured housing builder, but the website also seems to indicate they'll run those to order. I've got a fab guy I use for small stuff who used to be one of "the guys" at American Bridge. If it was made in the last 100 years and has published info he'll have it, or know where to get it lol. That's if he has not keeled over lately as he's about 85 but still going at it...I think.

On a side note reading through the company history, those WV guys may have been the inventors of the micro mini mill. Back in the day there were many here around Pittsburgh, not so much now days.

In the last few years I can not bring myself to believe Lippert would still be using those. I can see 03 or even 2010, but with what they have acquired and have become in the in the last 10 years since they bought up everyone and everybody, who was into frames....almost,...I'm skeptical. I know they did a major outlay a few years ago for continuous welding equipment, read that in a trade pub.

It's neither here nor there, but I once had a long conversation with a broker over drinks about what Lipperts buyers look for when they go out shopping materials.....I won't go deeply into it, but will just say they apparently go looking for what others are not looking for, if you get my drift.

[Huntindog]

John, I noticed something made out of wood attached to your frame. It appears to be able to swing down. What is that?

[JBarca]

Also, Arctic Fox uses the rolled MH beam too. Or they use too.

[JBarca]

Ralph Cramden wrote:


Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".

There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.

In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.

Here is what you can get from a hot mill.

There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269

There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594

That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.

Hi Ralph,

There was a period of time when Lippert was able to get hot rolled MH beams. They might still be able to, I don't know. I have one made in Nov. 2003 and Hunting Dog's has one too although his is a little heavier than mine.

I cannot find these thin H shapes "yet" in any hand book, but they do make them for the Manufactured Housing market. They call them MH beams or thin I beam. Here is one mill that makes them. So far that is the only mill I can find them on the web that does. I'm sure there are more, just I have not found them.
http://www.swvainc.com/housing.html

You will notice they offer a 10 x 8#/ft and a 10 x 9#/ft which I have and it has an area moment of inertia of 35.5 in.^4th.

Huntingdog's frame is closer to a 10" x 13.2#/foot with an area moment of inertia of 50.6 in.^4th. His vintage is stronger and the one he ended up with was a good one. I wish mine was that heavy, close to 42% stronger given the same steel. He has a higher GVWR on his camper then mine too. Mine is only 10,000#. Dog's is 11,500#

Here are some rusted pics of mine. I have since cleaned that rust off and painted it after my repair and these are all I had on my web server that sort of showed the radius. They are rolled.






Here is a closer one of the radius


These beams are for sure thin. They do make them from HSLC steel in the 50ksi yield range. In order to help them not deflect, they are welding beads on the top flange to heat/shrink in some positive camber at the rear hanger area to help the overhung loads keep the beam straighter. This have been ongoing in the industry for a long time.

If you ever find a handbook of these, please let me know.

To the topic of Lippert frames, in my case Sunline used them as a subcontractor. They had an east coast plant near their factory and they use to make products for Skyline too I think back in the day. And as far as subcontractors go, if the firm hiring them accepts poor quality that is problem 1. In my case my frame was not made that bad although I had issues they could not weld hangers on in the correct location. They just plain screwed up. If all the big RV manufacturers are accepting poor quality they are paying for, in my book they are as bad as the ones who made it.

Hope this helps

John