Mexican Diesel Fuel/Sulfur Effects Update

[Ed_White]

Much to my distress I just learned here in the Southern Baja that the owner of a late model GM diesel pickup paid almost $3,000 to ship his truck back to the USA when it went into limp mode (5 mph) in Los Barriles. It is a 2013 and he experienced the typical signs of TEMPORARY sulfur poisoning of the emissions system. That is, engine light on, followed by DEF QUALITY POOR warning light, then progressive speed limitation.

The reason I'm distressed is because he didn't need to spend the $3,000 !!! These problems are COMPLETELY MANAGEABLE when you know what to do to force a regeneration. The regeneration cycle burns the sulfur compounds out of the system. I can only think that he was not computer literate so never located references to the extensive knowledge base about this issue on the net.

Anyway, if anyone knows of, or hears of, an owner of a late model (post 2007.5) diesel pickup truck having the above problem, PLEASE PUT THAT PERSON IN TOUCH WITH ME IMMEDIATELY at whitetmp@aol.com

Depending on the model year, I can provide the model appropriate information needed to completely manage the problem and NEVER go into limp mode.

Thankfully, the issue of excessive sulfur in Mexican diesel is almost over. Pemex announce last September that it had allocated funds to refurbish their refineries during 2015 so that ULSD (Ulta Low Sulfur Diesel) will be available across 60% of Mexico by mid-year and throughout Mexico by early 2016. Let's hope they stick to the promised timetable.

[Tequila]

We run RV caravans down there and have had several customers who ignore it with no ill effect. The same story with other companies I have consulted with including Caravanes Soliel who bring over 150 rigs a year down here. My conclusion is that the 10-15 tankfuls most use presents no issues as long as you do not use the vehicle to drive around and just use it to get from point A to B. We lose about 25% of potential customers over this issue as we are upfront with them about it, and they have to sign off on it, but I suspect all that happens is you take some life off your DPF filter.

Hopefully it will be a moot point next season, I have heard Pemex plans to have 60% ULSD on the market, plus there will be competition next year.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Good god,

There is so much unsubstantiated "recollections" vague mention of links and rationalization of hypothosis on this thread it has become worthless. An individual whom travels with a fiftt thousand dollar vehicle and has fuel damage an engine is going to scream their fool head off. Please point me to a verbatim account... thank you.

[stanbnv]

We have an 06 Dodge so don't really have a dog in this hunt, but if I really wanted info on lsd use in Mexico I'd go to someplace like dieseltruckresource.com (for Dodges) not on this forum. Actual real automotive engineers sometimes post on there. Ed White did suggest that you know. BTW, Ed did post links to the actual testing done prior to the implementing of these engines back in 2007.

[briansue]

Have you emailed him and asked him?

This discussion has been ongoing for quite a few years. There is no reason for private emails about it since this is a public forum where many people might like to know more about the topic. So far we still do not know or understand what Mr. White is saying. What he does say seems to conflict with everything else we find on the subject. I personally do not care - but it seems there are people on this forum who would like to know more about what problems might arise if a post 2007 diesel is run on other than Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. All we find on the internet is that the DPF used on today's US diesel powered vehicles is meant to filter soot and ash caused in part by 15ppm diesel fuel and that fuel exceeding 15ppm should not be used in these vehicles for a number of reasons mentioned previously in this thread. From the many posts here it would seem Mr. White has reached his conclusions because he personally has not heard of anyone having problems other than those he has mentioned - for which he has had to fly to places in Mexico to help people fix. Is it not possible that there are people who have driven these vehicles in Mexico and had problems and have not reported to Mr. White because they have no idea of his existence? So are we expected to conclude that since Mr. White has not heard of any problems those problems do not exist? Does it seem logical that if you ask a device to filter 20 times more that it is designed to filter it may cause problems? Can the regen burn off 20 times more particles than it was designed to burn without causing any other problems? If there is a source or sources where answers can be found we have not been able to find them by Googling. Mr. White claims to have sources but does not provide those sources because they are a secret. What more is there to say?

[sonora]

briansue wrote:

rule 2 is ' you can not be more knowledgeable than me because i am an expert on everything.

I am not sure what this means as only one person on this forum has claimed to be an EXPERT on DPFs and LSD as opposed to ULSD. I have been asking the EXPERT for answer to questions for several years now and have had no answers to my questions. I have repeatedly stated that I know nothing and am no expert - I only ask questions. So I Google for answers since the EXPERT does not answer questions in a way anyone can understand. When I do Google all I can find are answers that conflict with what the EXPERT is telling us.

So I continue to ask the EXPERT for answers. Since I know nothing I do get confused about this whole topic which is why I keep asking questions. I have probably oversimplified some things and used incorrect terminology. I am sorry that I do not understand. Based on what I have found on the internet on websites I have referenced in this thread I think I have learned a few things. But then there is conflicting information. I incorrectly say that sulfur clogs DPFs - which is one of my oversimplifications. I did not want to go into the whole explanation of particulates and PPMs and burning fuel creating soot and ash from the particulates. At least that is my understanding of what happens based on what many internet websites say. Is there another way to explain or is this correct? I do not know. That is why I ask questions.

Based on any number of posts above in this thread it does seem to me that soot and ash from burned particulates found in diesel fuel are what the DPF is there to filter. This soot and ash can then be burned off by a process called regeneration. But the DPF is designed for fuel containing no more than 15ppm of sulfur - and sulfur is at least one of the particulates causing the soot and ash the DPF filters. So let's say the fuel in Mexico has as little as 300ppm of sulfur - which is 20 times the sulfur recommended/required to be used with these engines. Would it not be safe to assume (I hate to assume) that having 20 times as much sulfur in the fuel would cause a substantial increase in the amount of soot and ash finding its way to the DPF? I am asking. I do not know. But what I find on the internet indicates this is what happens and why notices on every diesel fuel pump in the US says 15ppm fuel MUST be used in vehicle from the year 2007 on.

According to still more found on the internet I have found any number of websites which say that regeneration alone will not completely clean a DPF and eventually the DPF will have to be removed for cleaning or the DPF will have to be replaced. Once again this leads me to believe that more soot and ash will require that the DPF be cleaned or replaced sooner. But I do not know so I ask questions that do not get answered here.

Then there is the question of a DPF that is becoming restricted (maybe not yet clogged but not passing as much exhaust as it should) and causing back pressure to parts of the engine. This should cause regeneration. But what I do not find an answer to is if regeneration does not completely clean the DPF will there be a slowly increasing amount of back pressure on vital engine components as has been stated on websites I have found. I do not know. I cannot get answers.

Another point that has been raised by others has to do with heat generated by the DPF or in the DPF during regeneration and if this heat, or should we say an increase in the number of times the system experiences the high temperatures, could cause other damage to the DPF or other components of the vehicle.

Mr. White says . . .

Unfortunately, because there is no information about the make, model year, and circumstances surrounding the above, it is impossible to comment, other than to say that the claims in the quote have NOTHING TO DO WITH MEXICAN DIESEL FUEL. THE AMOUNT OF SULFUR IN DIESEL FUEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MECHANICS OF SOOT COLLECTION IN A DPF. As I have already mentioned in earlier posts, clogged DPFs happened very rarely in the earliest model years of DPF technology, and are not something the average owner should be concerned about. Millions of diesel pickups are on the road with DPFs and clogging is virtually unheard of these days.

CLOGGED DPFs, AS MENTIONED ABOVE, ARE A COMPLETELY SEPARATE TOPIC TO THE AMOUNT OF SULFUR IN MEXICAN DIESEL FUEL. There is no connection between the two. The questioner has an unreasonable and unjustified fear of DPFs.

I have highlighted a few words by changing them to upper case. This is what mystifies me. Everything else I have ever read leads me to understand that it is the higher sulfur content that becomes soot and/or ash that is collected by the DPF and eventually starts to clog the DPF. What Mr. White says in phrases quoted here are in total conflict with everything else I have ever heard of or read about this whole topic. So now Mr. White seems to be saying that ppm of sulfur has nothing to do with the DPF. Does this mean that burning sulfur in the engine DOES NOT cause soot and ash that is collected by the DPF? Why then does the US require special fuel? Why can't we all just burn high sulfur fuel? What is it that does clog the DPF if it is not soot and ash from burned sulfur? Why do DPFs eventually have to be cleaned of this soot and ash? I can't find answers. The EXPERT is not telling us.

I am not trying to cause trouble. We still have a 2006 and will not upgrade until we know a lot more about all of this fuel stuff. Since we still cannot find satisfactory answers we stay in 2006. I sure wish someone out there could answer these questions in a way that a layman with no technical knowledge could understand.


.

Have you emailed him and asked him?

[iguana07]

From what I have learned is that the ECM will not let the engine run if the DPF gets loaded. When it gets to a certain "full" point it regens. That keeps the flow going. I am a willing guinea pig and will find out how it goes this coming Dec.

Brian thanks for the offer! So far Sandy is in heaven with her new coach and I like it also, nice to have a quality coach. We are currently in Yuma on our way to Quartzite after a Jeep I just purchased has its new interior done in Navarro's shop in Algodones.

[briansue]

Iguana07 - Hi Chuck & Sandi,

First congrats on the Bus - we have an 06 and are very familiar with all things Tiffin should you have questions. They have reps in CA and I have their contact info around somewhere. We have also been to Red Bay a few times. We think you will find Tiffin has about the best customer service of any company we have every encountered. PM me if you want more discussion on that topic.

About the whole DPF and ECM thing. My question has more to do with things that could happen to the engine due to DPF problems - an example would be back pressure causing problems with things I dug up and posted previously in this thread - turbo - injectors - etc. Having seen techs with their computers connected to our Bus a few times I know they can find all kinds of info about the engine - not necessarily DPF specific but things that could be caused due to the DPF being clogged. I have no idea but I have heard it said that it is possible. Whether the source of this info is credible I have no idea. That is why I ask questions. I seek credible answers. They are hard to come by.

[iguana07]

I did as much research as I could prior to purchasing my 2009 Bus. Do to the fact we travel into Mexico almost every year. My engine was actually manufactured Dec. 2007 You can find 2008 models with 2006 engines so you need to research that also.
We decided to go with the 09 because of options we could not get in the older models.

(lay men terms)
Now with that in mind I researched the DPF and DEF in the newer models. DEF was not required until 2010.
From my research Brian you pretty much have nailed the issue. More sulfur in the fuel the more soot produced. The DPF is what absorbs the soot and when necessary regens to burn it off. Only certain applications have a manual regen according to Cummins and they do not instal them in Motor Homes. So when the ECM sees that the DPF is starting to clog the ECM tells it to regen. Now with the Mexican fuel that will happen more often. But not necessarily will clean it out completely, leading to having to remove and clean DPF. There is a way to have it cleaned commercially but that will not happen in Mexico. So in having talked to local diesel mechanics the next best thing is to remove it and blow it out. I have heard that even some truck drivers make a big hole through their DPF so it will not set off the ECM. From what I have learned is that the ECM cannot tell you on any sort of reading that high sulfur fuel was used.

When I first purchased the Bus I considered having the ECM modified and removing the DPF and installing a standard muffler. Over $2000.00 to do so. There still are companies that will do that, but not in California. Illegal!
But after lots of conversations with mechanics and Cummins I have decided to run down to Mexico and see what happens. I will closely monitor the system.
I hope someday Mexico has ULSD but I am not holding my breath.

[briansue]

rule 2 is ' you can not be more knowledgeable than me because i am an expert on everything.

I am not sure what this means as only one person on this forum has claimed to be an EXPERT on DPFs and LSD as opposed to ULSD. I have been asking the EXPERT for answer to questions for several years now and have had no answers to my questions. I have repeatedly stated that I know nothing and am no expert - I only ask questions. So I Google for answers since the EXPERT does not answer questions in a way anyone can understand. When I do Google all I can find are answers that conflict with what the EXPERT is telling us.

So I continue to ask the EXPERT for answers. Since I know nothing I do get confused about this whole topic which is why I keep asking questions. I have probably oversimplified some things and used incorrect terminology. I am sorry that I do not understand. Based on what I have found on the internet on websites I have referenced in this thread I think I have learned a few things. But then there is conflicting information. I incorrectly say that sulfur clogs DPFs - which is one of my oversimplifications. I did not want to go into the whole explanation of particulates and PPMs and burning fuel creating soot and ash from the particulates. At least that is my understanding of what happens based on what many internet websites say. Is there another way to explain or is this correct? I do not know. That is why I ask questions.

Based on any number of posts above in this thread it does seem to me that soot and ash from burned particulates found in diesel fuel are what the DPF is there to filter. This soot and ash can then be burned off by a process called regeneration. But the DPF is designed for fuel containing no more than 15ppm of sulfur - and sulfur is at least one of the particulates causing the soot and ash the DPF filters. So let's say the fuel in Mexico has as little as 300ppm of sulfur - which is 20 times the sulfur recommended/required to be used with these engines. Would it not be safe to assume (I hate to assume) that having 20 times as much sulfur in the fuel would cause a substantial increase in the amount of soot and ash finding its way to the DPF? I am asking. I do not know. But what I find on the internet indicates this is what happens and why notices on every diesel fuel pump in the US says 15ppm fuel MUST be used in vehicle from the year 2007 on.

According to still more found on the internet I have found any number of websites which say that regeneration alone will not completely clean a DPF and eventually the DPF will have to be removed for cleaning or the DPF will have to be replaced. Once again this leads me to believe that more soot and ash will require that the DPF be cleaned or replaced sooner. But I do not know so I ask questions that do not get answered here.

Then there is the question of a DPF that is becoming restricted (maybe not yet clogged but not passing as much exhaust as it should) and causing back pressure to parts of the engine. This should cause regeneration. But what I do not find an answer to is if regeneration does not completely clean the DPF will there be a slowly increasing amount of back pressure on vital engine components as has been stated on websites I have found. I do not know. I cannot get answers.

Another point that has been raised by others has to do with heat generated by the DPF or in the DPF during regeneration and if this heat, or should we say an increase in the number of times the system experiences the high temperatures, could cause other damage to the DPF or other components of the vehicle.

Mr. White says . . .

Unfortunately, because there is no information about the make, model year, and circumstances surrounding the above, it is impossible to comment, other than to say that the claims in the quote have NOTHING TO DO WITH MEXICAN DIESEL FUEL. THE AMOUNT OF SULFUR IN DIESEL FUEL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MECHANICS OF SOOT COLLECTION IN A DPF. As I have already mentioned in earlier posts, clogged DPFs happened very rarely in the earliest model years of DPF technology, and are not something the average owner should be concerned about. Millions of diesel pickups are on the road with DPFs and clogging is virtually unheard of these days.

CLOGGED DPFs, AS MENTIONED ABOVE, ARE A COMPLETELY SEPARATE TOPIC TO THE AMOUNT OF SULFUR IN MEXICAN DIESEL FUEL. There is no connection between the two. The questioner has an unreasonable and unjustified fear of DPFs.

I have highlighted a few words by changing them to upper case. This is what mystifies me. Everything else I have ever read leads me to understand that it is the higher sulfur content that becomes soot and/or ash that is collected by the DPF and eventually starts to clog the DPF. What Mr. White says in phrases quoted here are in total conflict with everything else I have ever heard of or read about this whole topic. So now Mr. White seems to be saying that ppm of sulfur has nothing to do with the DPF. Does this mean that burning sulfur in the engine DOES NOT cause soot and ash that is collected by the DPF? Why then does the US require special fuel? Why can't we all just burn high sulfur fuel? What is it that does clog the DPF if it is not soot and ash from burned sulfur? Why do DPFs eventually have to be cleaned of this soot and ash? I can't find answers. The EXPERT is not telling us.

I am not trying to cause trouble. We still have a 2006 and will not upgrade until we know a lot more about all of this fuel stuff. Since we still cannot find satisfactory answers we stay in 2006. I sure wish someone out there could answer these questions in a way that a layman with no technical knowledge could understand.


.

[tepetapan]

Ed White wrote:
I'm leaving you folks now to stew in your own juices until next season.

All the Best
Ed

for the life of me i can not understand why you even post information here. kill the messenger is the rule number 1. . rule 2 is ' you can not be more knowledgeable than me because i am an expert on everything.

[briansue]

Sorry for more confusion. I use the word sulfur rather than soot - or getting into the whole particulate thing. A DPF filters soot - particulates - unburned from the engine. Sulfur is one of the particulates. Today's DPFs used on today's diesel vehicles sold for use in the US are designed to work with fuel containing 15ppm or less. They are not designed to work with fuels containing higher amounts of sulfur. This would cause more soot which the DPF is not designed to work properly with. I use the word sulfur because that is the content of the fuel we are talking about when we talk about LSD or ULSD fuel - with ULSD being the fuel with 15ppm sulfur today's DPFs on US built vehicles are equipped with. I also assumed that it was understood that the DPF is part of the exhaust system and never intended to imply it is a fuel filter. It filters particulates from the exhaust after the fuel is burned. Sorry to assume everyone knows this. As above I reference websites where people can learn about this. I post web addresses and places where people can learn more. And I ask questions. So if people take the time to look up the web addresses I posted previously you will learn what I am trying to say and the reasons for my questions. I have stated many times that I know nothing about this.

HERE ARE SOME MORE WEB ADDRESSES WHERE MORE INFORMATION MIGHT BE FOUND....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter

New particulate filters can capture from 30% to greater than 95% of the harmful soot. With an optimal diesel particulate filter (DPF), soot emissions may be decreased to 0.001 g / km or less.
The quality of the fuel also influences the formation of these particles. For example, a high sulfur content diesel produces more particles. Lower sulfur fuel produces fewer particles, and allows use of particulate filters. The injection pressure of diesel also influences the formation of fine particles.


Filters require more maintenance than catalytic converters. Ash, a byproduct of oil consumption from normal engine operation, builds up in the filter as it cannot be converted into a gas and pass through the walls of the filter. This increases the pressure before the filter. Warnings are given to the driver before filter restriction causes an issue with drive-ability or damage to the engine or filter develop. Regular filter maintenance is a necessity.


http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1107dp_dpf_the_time_bomb_under_your_diesel

As the exhaust gases pass through this filter, emissions of particulate matter (PM), carbon monoxide (CO), and hydrocarbons (HC) are trapped in the filter and reduced by more than 90 percent. This trapped diesel particulate matter (DPM) settles inside the filter walls until temperatures reach levels that allow for DPM combustion. The process of combusting these trapped particulates inside the filter without an intolerable buildup of engine backpressure is called filter regeneration. People who think of this as a self-cleaning (we did) for the DPF are practicing a little wishful thinking. To truly clean the DPF involves taking the filter out of the exhaust system and putting it in a special cleaning chamber.

NOTE - these are not my words - I did not write this - it is Copy & Paste from the websites - and I posted more previously. So here are a couple of pertinent words if you missed them......

For example, a high sulfur content diesel produces more particles. Lower sulfur fuel produces fewer particles, and allows use of particulate filters.

The research I have done has shown me that there are DPFs made for fuel containing up to 2,000ppm sulfur - BUT these are NOT the type of DPFs used on US built vehicle which only have the 15ppm filters.

[Mountaineer42]

briansue wrote:


So the confusion continues. A DPF filters sulfur. It is designed to filter sulfur from fuel containing 15ppm of sulfur. Fuel that is not designed for a DPF system can contain up to 500ppm of sulfur. Since the day they came our with this equipment and to this day there are continual warnings not to put 500ppm fuel in a system designed for 15ppm fuel. Since the DPF is supposed to filter sulfur from a 15ppm system it would stand to reason and common sense that fuel contain a great deal more than the device is designed for might have some adverse effect on that device. Seems pretty basic and simple to me. Even some fuel containing 15ppm has been known to clog some DPFs. So why would 500ppm be said to have no effect on a DPF? As far as the computer codes - the only codes ever previously mentioned that some tech or someone special trainee with a laptop has been said to be able to reset are those related to the DPF - my question had to do with all the other engine components that could be effected by a clogged DPF which are in the many websites I provided addresses for in my posts. In all my searches on this topic the only place I have ever heard anyone claim this is not so is on this forum - where the writer does not disclose sources since they are top secret. Let the buyer beware.

Wow!!! It is unbelievable that anyone could post such absolute gibberish and have such a complete misunderstanding of the function of a DPF! The DPF has NOTHING (that's as in ABSOLUTELY NOTHING)to do with filtering sulfur from the fuel.
If you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, it is always better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it!
Like Ed White, I see no point in continuing this discussion with people who know absolutely nothing about what they are talking about. Go ahead and respond, but people will only get a laugh at the complete ridiculousness of anything you have to say.

[Ed_White]

I'm leaving you folks now to stew in your own juices until next season.

All the Best
Ed

[moisheh]

"Fuel, Oil, and Oil Change Intervals Can Impact DPF Life

Here are factors to consider to maximize DFP life.
•Fuel. Too much soot leads to premature clogging and change cycles for the DPF. One way to counteract this issue is to focus on removing any controllable sources of soot or particulate matter.

One particular controllable source is the amount of sulfur in fuel. And this is where ULSD comes into play because its sulfur content is only 15 parts per million (ppm), down from the 500 ppm in the previous low sulfur fuel.

A Frequently-Asked-Questions document, produced by International Truck and Engine Corporation and posted on the Ryder Truck Leasing Web site, www.ryder.com, says this: "Misfueling once or twice won’t create problems; however, continuous use of diesel fuels containing more than the recommended 15 ppm of sulfur will cause a poisoning effect of the catalyst in the exhaust system and ruin the emissions system, causing the vehicle to break down with costly repair implications and void warranties."

"Anything that goes into the fuel tank," Aquaro warns, "will impact the DPF. So make sure you’re putting in the right fuel."

The net is full of stories from people having problems and warnings from fuel refiners , oil mfrs., engine mfrs. and every mfr. of diesel powered vehicles. I guess they have never heard of Ed White and the 4 ECM fairies.

Moisheh

[moisheh]

I have asked this question before but I will repeat: ED White:

Are you an ASE certified mechanic?
Are you a trained diesel mechanic?
Are you an automotive engineer?
Are you a chemist?

We should all keep in mind that many of the no problem reports come from Baja where some of the fuel is indeed ULSD. I doubt we will ever get any definitive info on whether the LSD can cause problems. Not enough users to get any decent data. These newer vehicles are problematic even when used NOB so why put yourself at risk by using one in Mexico? Oh wait: If I have a problem Ed or one of his trained crew will come to the rescue.

Moisheh