Can CCC be increased by making alterations to a Cameo 5er?

[janegowest]

I really like the floor plan of a 2009 Carriage Cameo 36FWS, but it only has a CCC of 951!!! I can't believe that a quality company like that would turn out such a rig! This was their first year with this model, so it looks like they goofed up, but you would think that they would have caught this before it left the factory! :h

In 2010, they got it right and have the proper CCC allowance, so it really DOES look like a mistake.

I was wondering if anything could be done to increase its carrying capacity, such as changing out the axles, springs, tires, etc. to enable it to carry more weight?? Or is the frame not strong enough in the first place, so that nothing can be done.... 😞

I am also wondering if their CCC does NOT include the weight of all the tanks full?

[janegowest]

Thank you, Travelnutz, those figures are pretty obvious, and everything adds up, as the brochure gives the correct GVWR. I always thought that this is how you come up with the CCC...GVWR-UVW.

[Allworth]

Jane,

Look back at some of your (many) questions...

Can you change tank sizes?

Can you change CCC?

Can you change kitchen layout?

I know you are trying to figure all of this out, but I really think you should worry less about changing things and look harder for a unit that you can accept as it is.

Compromises are necessary, but the right unit for you is out there somewhere.

A

[travelnutz]

One more attempt to educate some people.

Happen to have a 2016 Jayco brochure in my hand presently and here is what the weight specs are for the Eagle 355MBQS 5th wheel model:

Unloaded Vehicle weight - 11,280

Dry hitch weight - 2265

Gross vehicle weight rating - 13,750

Cargo carrying capacity - 2470

DUH! How can that be??? Should be 205 lbs CCC, right?

11,280 + 2265 = 13,545 close to the GVWR of 13,750 and it says it still can have 2470 lbs of cargo loaded in??? Fuzzy modern math or just a pure lie?

Nope! The pin weight is not part of the RV's weight as it is the pin weight on the tow vehicle and is carried solely by the tow vehicle and NOT by the RV's springs, axles, wheels, or tires. The RV's axle weight is where the coach's weight is carried. Pin weight even if 10,000 lbs is carried 100% by the tow vehicle and has nothing to do with the RV/trailer's weight on it's axles or tires.

11,280 + 2470 = 13,750 which is the RV's published GVWR and is clearly printed.

I've gotten so tired of constantly trying to educate some as to the same published known and printed facts over and over or is it that can't they read and/or comprehend. For crying out loud, it's in black and white on most RV manufacturer's own brochures and has been for eons. Yet, some argue or post misleading things which only confuse others. WHY?

Why is this so hard to understand??? It's not rocket science or even 5th grade math or comprehension level. It gets so old!

[SabreCanuck]

janegowest wrote:
Travelnutz, I am not trying to get exact numbers or split hairs. All I want is the bottom line that I can carry close to 3K safely? If so, I am one happy camper!

The bottom line is if the sticker on the camper is showing CCC = 951# then you cannot load 3000# in the camper. I don't care what other mathematics you use. The sticker should be the weight of the rig leaving the factory.

Only other option is to drag it to a scale and get real life weights but I can pretty much guarantee they will not be LIGHTER than what is on that sticker.

[janegowest]

Travelnutz, I am not trying to get exact numbers or split hairs. All I want is the bottom line that I can carry close to 3K safely? If so, I am one happy camper!

[travelnutz]

Jane,

I'm not splitting nickels as it's meaningless. Approximation is plenty close enough as no 2 people will order an RV exactly optioned the same and load it the same. I won't play the game of pinning weights down to a couple hundred lbs one way or the other. If you want to know the exact weights, take it to a truck scale and weigh it. The manufacturer can only give an average or approximate weights in a brochure of the model until the actual RV is completely built and then they can weigh it as built and optioned.

[janegowest]

GoPackGo wrote:

janegowest wrote:
Those figures are from the brochure.

So the factory GVWR for the 2009 model is approx 15,000 pounds and is approx 1,000 higher for the following 2 years ?

Also, hitch weights look wrong.

Hitch weight is based on GVWR. So should be approx 3000 pounds for the '09 model for example. Your '10 and '11 hitch weights don't look right at all.

Copied straight from the brochure! That's close. It's 2,835.

[janegowest]

Travelnutz, did you read that thread that I had linked to above ?

You are probably right about the CCC on the 2009. However, instead of it being a misprint, according to that thread, Carriage underrated their CCC to keep everything under 15k lbs to meet some kind of CA law. Here is the link again:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/207737-Fifth-wheel-weight-capacity

[GoPackGo]

janegowest wrote:
Those figures are from the brochure.

So the factory GVWR for the 2009 model is approx 15,000 pounds and is approx 1,000 higher for the following 2 years ?

Also, hitch weights look wrong.

Hitch weight is based on GVWR. So should be approx 3000 pounds for the '09 model for example. Your '10 and '11 hitch weights don't look right at all.

[travelnutz]

Jane,

What I'm saying is that Carriage's own numbers give the axle weight dry of 10,425. Also give the total dry weight of 13,250. 13,250 minus 10,425 = 2,825 which is the pin weight and that's what their spec give. Therefore, on the 14,000 lb axles there's only 10,425 lbs. 4 16" "E" range tires about any tire manufacturer makes has a min of 3400+ capacity each. 3400 X 4 equals 13,600 lbs. The tires on the trailer may even be "G range and then the total tire capacity would be over 14,000 lbs.

The tires if only "E" range would be the lowest total capacity and therefore, we must use them as they are the weakest component. 13,600 minus 10,425 = 3,175 lbs loading capacity. An added bedroom A/C is well under 100 lbs, Don't know which generator is installed in the 36FWS but a large 5500 watt Onan generator has a shipping weight of 279 lbs including the skid and all packing and the box. More likely the generator as installed adds no more than 250 lbs max. 350 on the high side from 3175 leaves 2,825 lbs. Remember that the 2010 and 2011 both have exactly 1,000 more lbs CCC in the brochure which makes a mistake in the 2009 brochure much more likely as the 2009 model is the same with the same components as the 2010 and 2011 and their CCC is listed at 2749 lbs average CCC. Draw your own conclusions!

Yes, close to 3,000 lbs CCC including those 2 items you'd mentioned. Carriage gives their CCC specs for an average optioned RV not a stripped down basic model RV as people and dealers do not order them that way. Very misleading giving a CCC number for units not the way they actually build with normal or average OEM options included.

Even if the 36FWS has the big 6500 watt Onan, it's only 11 lbs more than the 5500 so no big deal. The Cameo frame is not any concern as it's the same frame used on all the even larger Cameos, Carriages, and Carrilites as Carriage frames are the same size and have double stacked 2 X 6 welded box construction and were always the strongest 5th wheel frame in the industry and always made by Carriage in house. A square box tube frame has 2 6" vertical walls and 2 horizontal 2" sides in each tube and then double it by stacking to make a 12" high very strong assembly. A 12" "I" beam frame only has ONE vertical wall (web) for strength and it's the metal on edge that gives the strength and rigidity. "I" beams are much cheaper to make than a box tube and much cheaper to build a frame out of than stacking and welding 2 box tubes and why other manufacturer's and Lippert uses "I" beams. Stacked box frames are considerably stronger for the same frame height dimension. Engineering 101!

Jane, it's your money and your choice so it's you who must decide. Not me!

[janegowest]

Those figures are from the brochure.

[GoPackGo]

Show the factory GVWR for each of them. Not the CCC.

I think you are basing the CCC from the yellow door sticker on the model you're looking at. But what do the yellow door stickers show for the 2010 and 2011 ?

You may be comparing apples and oranges here. You want to see FACTORY GVWR figures for all three. From a website or a brochure.

Remember that the yellow door stickers show CCC based on the already included factory options on that particular rig - #2 AC unit, genny, washer and dryer, etc. These stickers are unique to each rig. Cannot be used for across the board comparisons.

[janegowest]

Here are some numbers to consider...

2009 2010 2011

dry axle wt 10,425 10,620 10,305
hitch wt. 2,825 2,630 2,900
dry wt. 13,250 13,250 13,205
CCC 1,749 2,749 2,749

Let's see if someone can see any patterns or correlations to the mystery at hand! It's like rubik's cube!

Gee! I configured everything into a nice chart form, and the configuration completely disappeared when I hit "submit!" Hope you can make sense of the numbers!

The 3 sets of numbers are according to the years listed above them.

[janegowest]

Sorry folks! I had some work deadlines to meet, so have been out of pocket for the past few days!

I found this thread that may help explain some of the mystery...but who knows the truth for certain??

Travelnutz, are you saying that this rig should be able to carry 3,000+ lbs of cargo? Is that what are saying boils down to?

I suspect that you may be right, because if the true CCC was 951, I would think that it would have broken down by now!

I will call tomorrow and ask the salesman to send a pic of the yellow sticker and get some more particulars.

Thanks to everyone for pitching in! : )

[SabreCanuck]

travelnutz wrote:
Some of the posters are not thinking of the actual brochure weight of the 2009 Cameo 36FWS dry OEM 5th wheel. It's 10,425 lbs dry axle weight per the brochure spec and that includes the weight of the axles, springs, wheels, and tires as it's scale weighed with the 4 RV tires only being on the scale, and does not include the pin weight. The 2825 lb pin weight on the hitch in the brochure is on the truck's rear wheels only, NOT on the 5th wheels axles. So, the 2 - 7,000 lb capacity axles = 14,000 lbs actual can be carried on top of axles. Weight sitting ON the axles. The tires, wheels, and axles weight is on the ground, not carried on top of the axle and has nothing to do with the axle's weight carrying mac capacity. Incredibly easy to understand!

14,000 of axle capacity minus 10,425 brochure dry axle weight = 3575 lbs but the weight of the axles, wheels and tire's is included in he 10,425 lbs. You can subtract the combined weight of the axles, wheels, and tires to find the weight that is actually not on the axles in the dry OEM Cameo 36FWS 5th wheel and add it to the 3575 available CCC on the axles. However, you must subtract the weight of the springs themselves from the actual available CCC as their weight must also be accounted for also. Only the weight loaded on top of the RV axles is carried by the axles. The only other weight in a 5th wheel is on the pin!

No matter how you calculate or figure it, there's an absolute min of 3575 capacity left on the 2 - 7,000 lb axles, so what's the problem and why even think about changing to 8,000 lb axles???

Even if the generator and the added bedroom A/C (very generous) weight of 500 lbs is subtracted from the 3575 (and not even accounting for the heavy axles, wheels, and tires weights that must be added to the 3575), there's still 3,075 lbs of CCC left for water, sewage, and personal loaded items.

The pin weight has nothing to do with a trailer's axle weight as any and all pin weight is on the truck's rear tires even if it was 10,000 lbs.

The 4 RV Tires should have a min of 3400 lbs capacity each at full inflation. 4 times 3400 = 13,600 lbs on the RV tires as the pin weight in NOT on the tires. if the tires on the used 5th wheel have more than 3400 lbs capacity per tire, add the amount over per tire times 4 to the 13,600 mentioned.

Please tell me where there's a need for higher rated axles or tires???

If Jane had the Salesperson read the CCC=951# on the yellow sticker that is in the rig it makes it pretty hard to dispute??

Given printed CCC of 1749# on the brochure as per your previous post and the installation of generator, fuel tank, second A/C and who knows what else.

I don't see it as a stretch to get to 951# ACTUAL CCC on the sticker.