How do I move weight forward?

[RoyBell]

I am looking at side by sides for my 320G. On the scales with no bike/water the trailer has 12,120 lbs on the axles and 2,620 on the pin. With 1500 lbs of water and motorcycle, it shifts the weight to the trailer axles by 2,000 lbs and pulls almost 500 lbs off the pin. 14,120 on axles and 2140 on the pin.

This puts my axles at max load (7000 lb axles) despite being under GVWR.

It appears the water tank is towards the front front half of the garage and the fuel cell is at the rear half.

If I look at a 1700 lb side by side, I would have to run no water. However, it would pull so much weight off the pin, that my axles would be severally overloaded, despite being so much under GVWR. If I put more ballast on the pin, would it offset the weight in the garage?

It just blows my mind that adding 1500 lb to the garage adds 2000 lbs to the trailer axles. Adding 1700-1800 lbs would likely add 2400 lbs to the trailer axles

I have about 7" clearance now to the bedrails. Would lowering the pin an 1-2 inches and going with shorter tires (I have 35s), for another 1" gain transfer enough weight back to the truck to make it worth while? It's a little low in the rear currently which is likely contributing to this problem.

I am not sure what else I could do. There isn't much weight in the garage other than a portable grill and spare tire (maybe 100 lbs total) which I can transfer to front storage. We travel pretty light otherwise.

[RoyBell]

This was the result of rearranging weight around in the camper and removing approximately 100 lbs of stuff not needed, as well as 80 lbs of fuel from the fuel cell (10 gallons worth).Had the same 80 gallons of fresh and cycle as last time.



Removed 320# off the trailer axles.
Put roughly 300 lbs back on the pin.

Putting 1500 lbs of water & cycle now only removes 10% of that weight, 150lbs, from the pin vs 500 previously.

Steer axle went up since I weighed with the wife and dog this time.

I would the results are positive and pretty much what I figured. The heaviest items- Spare tire, grill, fuel all removed from the very back of the trailer and put towards the front helped quite a bit. As well as some of the other items such as tools and a 40 lb wagon.

With that being said, I am going to look into upgrading the axles and brakes over the winter to 8K lb just for the peace of mind.

[RoyBell]

schlep1967 wrote:

RoyBell wrote:

schlep1967 wrote:
If the manufacturer had put the front axle behind the back axle, you would not have this problem.
This is most likely a classic example of the salesman telling the design guy what the customers are looking at. High published empty pin weight makes smaller truck owner move away from these trailers. So they design them to shift the weight back when empty. That works fine, unless you use the same frame on a toy hauler where you add 1,000 or more to the rear. And now you have the OP's problem.
Looks like you would have to travel with no water or fuel until you get close to your destination. Or maybe empty water tanks and water jugs up front to help offset the weight of the SxS in the rear.

It's only an 11' garage (10.5' usable) so you aren't putting a lot of vehicle in the garage anyways.

I would also argue that a lot of this was my own doing with the options. I got the 3rd AC in back (100 lbs), the glass doors instead of pulldown screen (80-100lbs), power awning on the rear (80?) extra side awning (80?), slide toppers (minimal and not any behind the axle). So that's at least 350lbs of "stuff" I added to the rear of the camper which is obviously taking away some CCC in the garage.

I don't need to travel with 75 gallons (or full 115gal) of water either. I just always filled my tank on the old camper so I do it out of habit.

Also, I can re-arrange stuff as well. Right now I have light stuff like the camper chairs under the front bed, which is the most forward storage I have. I can put my spare tire up there, or both spares (I ordered an extra that stayed in the garage), my tools, spare parts, etc. that I seldom use are in the passthru storage which can be moved to the bunk storage. I have a table top on the rear hapijack that is for the garage, but we have not used it once. I can pull that out and save 25 lbs off the rear. The table for the sofa was too big the one time we used it, so I bought a little side table. Another 20lbs.

Other stuff we don't need can come out of the camper. Extra pots/pans, cups, electric griddle, etc. All this little stuff will add up. If I can, I will get this all done in time for Friday. I will then re-weigh with the cycle to see how the weight moved around.

The problem is if you remove any weight from in front of the axles your pin weight will just get lighter. Moving weight from back to front is what you need, and I see you doing that with some stuff. But if you move 300 lbs from back to front and then remove a different 300 lbs from the front, you are gaining very little in moving weight to the pin.

I am removing weight over the axles (kitchen area) and distributing weight to the furthest forward storage.


With that being said, I am looking into possibly upgrading the axles to 8K lb units. It does not appear as costly as I would had thought. Looks like possibly 3-4K to get them installed, which, to me, is pretty cheap insurance to make sure I am not overweight.

[RoyBell]

lincster wrote:

RoyBell wrote:

lincster wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
Some old members may remember this but several years back we had a Rv.net member who I think had a tri axle TH ?? with the same problem. His rig was a handful with the garage loaded. He worked with his trailer mfg and the solution was for them to reposition the axles under the unit.
I've had this done by a big rig trailer repair shop on a tri axle GN stock trailer.

Another option is 8k axle upgrades if moving things around fails.

IMO NHTSA screwed the pooch with their GVWR rules change in early '00s. They issued a NPRM for CFR 571 rules change regarding setting a rv trailers GVWR.
Consumer groups were pushing rules changes to same as a commercial trailers/motor vehicles with the sum of the axle ratings as its GVWR. However they caved in to RVIA push to allow lower axle rating than the units GVWR. They saved a few bucks.
All my commercial class trailers GVWR has always been the sum of its axle rating.

This. I agree.

OP, your toyhauler is of poor design in location of everything. Water tanks should always go above or slightly in front of the axles.

This is more a limitation of trailer length and 2 axles vs 3. There are 2 black tanks, 1 gray tank, at least 1 water tank, 1 fuel tank. There's only so many places to put that stuff. I would argue it's a better design since it's easier to fill up water and fuel at a campground than it is to dump black and gray. Therefor you can carry heavier cargo since the waste tanks are in the front.

Fill up water and fuel at a campground is what you base a "good design" on? Wow.
I will again state what I did earlier, glad I have a triple axle trailer with a 1 ton dually. I don't worry about where I put stuff or what I haul. Full water, empty water, full fuel, empty fuel, it all tows the same for me.

Good luck.

That's fantastic that you have a 1 ton and triple axle mansion on wheels. I don't want a 45' trailer. Not sure why you keep coming in here and bragging about it?? I will state again, I had size limitations based on my preference of indoor storage at my office AND I did not want a 40'+ camper since you start to limit yourself on campgrounds and places you can fit. I got exactly what I wanted and I came for suggestions.

Life is full of compromises. A 45' triple axle has plenty of drawbacks. Filling water and fuel at a campsite after unloading the toys is the least of my worries if I can't even get into the campsite since I have a trailer too long.

My only issue here is the axle capacity. That's it. Quit making this out to be more than it is.

[schlep1967]

RoyBell wrote:

schlep1967 wrote:
If the manufacturer had put the front axle behind the back axle, you would not have this problem.
This is most likely a classic example of the salesman telling the design guy what the customers are looking at. High published empty pin weight makes smaller truck owner move away from these trailers. So they design them to shift the weight back when empty. That works fine, unless you use the same frame on a toy hauler where you add 1,000 or more to the rear. And now you have the OP's problem.
Looks like you would have to travel with no water or fuel until you get close to your destination. Or maybe empty water tanks and water jugs up front to help offset the weight of the SxS in the rear.

It's only an 11' garage (10.5' usable) so you aren't putting a lot of vehicle in the garage anyways.

I would also argue that a lot of this was my own doing with the options. I got the 3rd AC in back (100 lbs), the glass doors instead of pulldown screen (80-100lbs), power awning on the rear (80?) extra side awning (80?), slide toppers (minimal and not any behind the axle). So that's at least 350lbs of "stuff" I added to the rear of the camper which is obviously taking away some CCC in the garage.

I don't need to travel with 75 gallons (or full 115gal) of water either. I just always filled my tank on the old camper so I do it out of habit.

Also, I can re-arrange stuff as well. Right now I have light stuff like the camper chairs under the front bed, which is the most forward storage I have. I can put my spare tire up there, or both spares (I ordered an extra that stayed in the garage), my tools, spare parts, etc. that I seldom use are in the passthru storage which can be moved to the bunk storage. I have a table top on the rear hapijack that is for the garage, but we have not used it once. I can pull that out and save 25 lbs off the rear. The table for the sofa was too big the one time we used it, so I bought a little side table. Another 20lbs.

Other stuff we don't need can come out of the camper. Extra pots/pans, cups, electric griddle, etc. All this little stuff will add up. If I can, I will get this all done in time for Friday. I will then re-weigh with the cycle to see how the weight moved around.

The problem is if you remove any weight from in front of the axles your pin weight will just get lighter. Moving weight from back to front is what you need, and I see you doing that with some stuff. But if you move 300 lbs from back to front and then remove a different 300 lbs from the front, you are gaining very little in moving weight to the pin.

[lincster]

RoyBell wrote:

lincster wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
Some old members may remember this but several years back we had a Rv.net member who I think had a tri axle TH ?? with the same problem. His rig was a handful with the garage loaded. He worked with his trailer mfg and the solution was for them to reposition the axles under the unit.
I've had this done by a big rig trailer repair shop on a tri axle GN stock trailer.

Another option is 8k axle upgrades if moving things around fails.

IMO NHTSA screwed the pooch with their GVWR rules change in early '00s. They issued a NPRM for CFR 571 rules change regarding setting a rv trailers GVWR.
Consumer groups were pushing rules changes to same as a commercial trailers/motor vehicles with the sum of the axle ratings as its GVWR. However they caved in to RVIA push to allow lower axle rating than the units GVWR. They saved a few bucks.
All my commercial class trailers GVWR has always been the sum of its axle rating.

This. I agree.

OP, your toyhauler is of poor design in location of everything. Water tanks should always go above or slightly in front of the axles.

This is more a limitation of trailer length and 2 axles vs 3. There are 2 black tanks, 1 gray tank, at least 1 water tank, 1 fuel tank. There's only so many places to put that stuff. I would argue it's a better design since it's easier to fill up water and fuel at a campground than it is to dump black and gray. Therefor you can carry heavier cargo since the waste tanks are in the front.

Fill up water and fuel at a campground is what you base a "good design" on? Wow.
I will again state what I did earlier, glad I have a triple axle trailer with a 1 ton dually. I don't worry about where I put stuff or what I haul. Full water, empty water, full fuel, empty fuel, it all tows the same for me.

Good luck.

[RoyBell]

schlep1967 wrote:
If the manufacturer had put the front axle behind the back axle, you would not have this problem.
This is most likely a classic example of the salesman telling the design guy what the customers are looking at. High published empty pin weight makes smaller truck owner move away from these trailers. So they design them to shift the weight back when empty. That works fine, unless you use the same frame on a toy hauler where you add 1,000 or more to the rear. And now you have the OP's problem.
Looks like you would have to travel with no water or fuel until you get close to your destination. Or maybe empty water tanks and water jugs up front to help offset the weight of the SxS in the rear.

It's only an 11' garage (10.5' usable) so you aren't putting a lot of vehicle in the garage anyways.

I would also argue that a lot of this was my own doing with the options. I got the 3rd AC in back (100 lbs), the glass doors instead of pulldown screen (80-100lbs), power awning on the rear (80?) extra side awning (80?), slide toppers (minimal and not any behind the axle). So that's at least 350lbs of "stuff" I added to the rear of the camper which is obviously taking away some CCC in the garage.

I don't need to travel with 75 gallons (or full 115gal) of water either. I just always filled my tank on the old camper so I do it out of habit.

Also, I can re-arrange stuff as well. Right now I have light stuff like the camper chairs under the front bed, which is the most forward storage I have. I can put my spare tire up there, or both spares (I ordered an extra that stayed in the garage), my tools, spare parts, etc. that I seldom use are in the passthru storage which can be moved to the bunk storage. I have a table top on the rear hapijack that is for the garage, but we have not used it once. I can pull that out and save 25 lbs off the rear. The table for the sofa was too big the one time we used it, so I bought a little side table. Another 20lbs.

Other stuff we don't need can come out of the camper. Extra pots/pans, cups, electric griddle, etc. All this little stuff will add up. If I can, I will get this all done in time for Friday. I will then re-weigh with the cycle to see how the weight moved around.

[schlep1967]

If the manufacturer had put the front axle behind the back axle, you would not have this problem.
This is most likely a classic example of the salesman telling the design guy what the customers are looking at. High published empty pin weight makes smaller truck owner move away from these trailers. So they design them to shift the weight back when empty. That works fine, unless you use the same frame on a toy hauler where you add 1,000 or more to the rear. And now you have the OP's problem.
Looks like you would have to travel with no water or fuel until you get close to your destination. Or maybe empty water tanks and water jugs up front to help offset the weight of the SxS in the rear.

[RoyBell]

lincster wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
Some old members may remember this but several years back we had a Rv.net member who I think had a tri axle TH ?? with the same problem. His rig was a handful with the garage loaded. He worked with his trailer mfg and the solution was for them to reposition the axles under the unit.
I've had this done by a big rig trailer repair shop on a tri axle GN stock trailer.

Another option is 8k axle upgrades if moving things around fails.

IMO NHTSA screwed the pooch with their GVWR rules change in early '00s. They issued a NPRM for CFR 571 rules change regarding setting a rv trailers GVWR.
Consumer groups were pushing rules changes to same as a commercial trailers/motor vehicles with the sum of the axle ratings as its GVWR. However they caved in to RVIA push to allow lower axle rating than the units GVWR. They saved a few bucks.
All my commercial class trailers GVWR has always been the sum of its axle rating.

This. I agree.

OP, your toyhauler is of poor design in location of everything. Water tanks should always go above or slightly in front of the axles.

This is more a limitation of trailer length and 2 axles vs 3. There are 2 black tanks, 1 gray tank, at least 1 water tank, 1 fuel tank. There's only so many places to put that stuff. I would argue it's a better design since it's easier to fill up water and fuel at a campground than it is to dump black and gray. Therefor you can carry heavier cargo since the waste tanks are in the front.

[lincster]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Some old members may remember this but several years back we had a Rv.net member who I think had a tri axle TH ?? with the same problem. His rig was a handful with the garage loaded. He worked with his trailer mfg and the solution was for them to reposition the axles under the unit.
I've had this done by a big rig trailer repair shop on a tri axle GN stock trailer.

Another option is 8k axle upgrades if moving things around fails.

IMO NHTSA screwed the pooch with their GVWR rules change in early '00s. They issued a NPRM for CFR 571 rules change regarding setting a rv trailers GVWR.
Consumer groups were pushing rules changes to same as a commercial trailers/motor vehicles with the sum of the axle ratings as its GVWR. However they caved in to RVIA push to allow lower axle rating than the units GVWR. They saved a few bucks.
All my commercial class trailers GVWR has always been the sum of its axle rating.

This. I agree.

OP, your toyhauler is of poor design in location of everything. Water tanks should always go above or slightly in front of the axles.

[RoyBell]

Heres a diagram of what's going on. My tanks are rough estimates since my underside is all enclosed. I am pretty sure there are 2 fresh water tanks but not sure.

[lincster]

schlep1967 wrote:

lincster wrote:
So glad I have a 5th wheel and 1 ton dually. Don't have to worry about this stuff.
Put stuff where I want and head on down the road.

So you didn't read the thread at all and you are superior because you have a dually. Got it.

His problem is lack of weight being on the truck. Not too much weight.

Pretty much.

You didn't understand my post obviously.

[msmith1_wa]

schlep1967 wrote:

lincster wrote:
So glad I have a 5th wheel and 1 ton dually. Don't have to worry about this stuff.
Put stuff where I want and head on down the road.

So you didn't read the thread at all and you are superior because you have a dually. Got it.

His problem is lack of weight being on the truck. Not too much weight.

The OP also has a 5th wheel.

[schlep1967]

lincster wrote:
So glad I have a 5th wheel and 1 ton dually. Don't have to worry about this stuff.
Put stuff where I want and head on down the road.

So you didn't read the thread at all and you are superior because you have a dually. Got it.

His problem is lack of weight being on the truck. Not too much weight.

[lincster]

So glad I have a 5th wheel and 1 ton dually. Don't have to worry about this stuff.
Put stuff where I want and head on down the road.