what happened to taking pride in your work

[Goostoff]

The wife and I 150 miles one way yesterday to check out the Keystone dealer with a good selection. We had a certain floor plan we wanted and they had it. Now I know Montana isn't really top of the line trailers but they are what I consider a high end trailer for the average Joe. We ended up going through 7 Montana 5th wheels and every one of them had cabinet hinges that were not tightened and when you opened them the door fell off. These are 2017 trailers and should not be falling apart on the dealers lot. I was very disappointed.

We did love the window on the front cap though.

[larry_barnhart]

Santa Fe wrote:

NJRVer wrote:

Santa Fe wrote:
You can equate buying a new RV to purchasing a new house. I took delivery of a brand new Keystone Springdale this year and a brand new manufactured home this year. Both of which were made in a factory with quality control standards and with human hands. Both my new trailer and new home have had some things here and there to be addressed by the retailers I purchased them from...however, I never had the expectation that either one of these would be perfect. They both have had their quirks...you just have to be persistent to get things fixed sometimes. Overall, though, I'm really pleased with both my Keystone and my new home.

So what was the price difference between your Springdale and your "Manufactured" home? "Manufactured" home is a mobile home??

How many sq. ft. in both?

Manufactured home built way better than RV for less cost.

I think you're getting a little personal there asking about the price difference...

Yes, it is a mobile home, brand new 2014. 747 square feet in the home, 232 in my travel trailer. My new home is an entry level model (Colony Beacon). It's my first place and I'm pretty proud of it...not many other 24 year olds are living in a modest new house like I am.

Maybe I have lower standards than most, but I'm perfectly happy with the quality in both my home and my travel trailer. And it may be my own personal preference, but I like that both of them were manufactured inside a factory to specific plans/codes/quality standards.

I am proud of you for being a smart young feller. When you buy what you can afford that is good thinking and less stress.

chevman

[Santa_Fe]

NJRVer wrote:

Santa Fe wrote:
You can equate buying a new RV to purchasing a new house. I took delivery of a brand new Keystone Springdale this year and a brand new manufactured home this year. Both of which were made in a factory with quality control standards and with human hands. Both my new trailer and new home have had some things here and there to be addressed by the retailers I purchased them from...however, I never had the expectation that either one of these would be perfect. They both have had their quirks...you just have to be persistent to get things fixed sometimes. Overall, though, I'm really pleased with both my Keystone and my new home.

So what was the price difference between your Springdale and your "Manufactured" home? "Manufactured" home is a mobile home??

How many sq. ft. in both?

Manufactured home built way better than RV for less cost.

I think you're getting a little personal there asking about the price difference...

Yes, it is a mobile home, brand new 2014. 747 square feet in the home, 232 in my travel trailer. My new home is an entry level model (Colony Beacon). It's my first place and I'm pretty proud of it...not many other 24 year olds are living in a modest new house like I am.

Maybe I have lower standards than most, but I'm perfectly happy with the quality in both my home and my travel trailer. And it may be my own personal preference, but I like that both of them were manufactured inside a factory to specific plans/codes/quality standards.

[NJRVer]

Santa Fe wrote:
You can equate buying a new RV to purchasing a new house. I took delivery of a brand new Keystone Springdale this year and a brand new manufactured home this year. Both of which were made in a factory with quality control standards and with human hands. Both my new trailer and new home have had some things here and there to be addressed by the retailers I purchased them from...however, I never had the expectation that either one of these would be perfect. They both have had their quirks...you just have to be persistent to get things fixed sometimes. Overall, though, I'm really pleased with both my Keystone and my new home.

So what was the price difference between your Springdale and your "Manufactured" home? "Manufactured" home is a mobile home??

How many sq. ft. in both?

Manufactured home built way better than RV for less cost.

[Santa_Fe]

You can equate buying a new RV to purchasing a new house. I took delivery of a brand new Keystone Springdale this year and a brand new manufactured home this year. Both of which were made in a factory with quality control standards and with human hands. Both my new trailer and new home have had some things here and there to be addressed by the retailers I purchased them from...however, I never had the expectation that either one of these would be perfect. They both have had their quirks...you just have to be persistent to get things fixed sometimes. Overall, though, I'm really pleased with both my Keystone and my new home.

[RustyJC]

westom wrote:

RustyJC wrote:
Globalization, emissions regulations, CAFE standards, etc. are moving technology toward the smaller displacement turbocharged engines we see today almost solely because they produce better numbers in government test cycles.

Total nonsense promoted by a 'blame the government' mentality.

Nonsense?? I think not. Why IS the 2.0L turbo 4 cylinder showing up in more and more American cars in lieu of naturally aspirated V-6 and V-8 engines? There must be a driving force, and there is - emissions and CAFE regulations.

Rusty

[westom]

RustyJC wrote:
Globalization, emissions regulations, CAFE standards, etc. are moving technology toward the smaller displacement turbocharged engines we see today almost solely because they produce better numbers in government test cycles.

Total nonsense promoted by a 'blame the government' mentality. GM vice president for drive train development described those technologies first developed here - including variable valve timing - over 30 years ago. But business school types (in the industry called bean counters) replaced product people (in the business called car guys). Whereas the 1950s and 1960 saw phenomenal new innovation, all that stopped starting in the 1970s. Because so many top auto industry executives did not even know how to drive a car. Did not need to know anything about the product - as taught in business schools.

A four cylinder engine designed in Germany was phenomenal back then. When Henry Ford starting making it in America, he even removed oil holes around an overhead cam to cut costs. That car was famous for requiring a new overhead cam every 20,000 miles. That (and not government requirement myths promoted to cast blame elsewhere) is why Americans still needed obsolete technology V-8s. Engineers were not allowed to develop new products. Car guys could only use what was already existing (and obsolete). Therefore low quality persisted or increased. An attitude even apparent with increased drug use.

Only reason for innovation in GM products is government regulation. Because innovation is so routinely stifled by bean counters, then engineers are no longer allowed to innovate until a government regulation eventually required it.

To cut costs, American bean counters even stopped painting the inside of fenders. Cars would have rust holes in two or three years. Then they told the most easily brainwashed that America was using more salt on roads. Total nonsense that was widely believed. This is low quality only created when management (not government) is the enemy of the nation, its citizens, and consumers.

Radial tire. Developed in 1948. All over the world by early 1970s - except in America. Radial did double the mileage of obsolete technology bias belted tires. Kept out of America by American tire companies until Michelin (secretly) built factories in North America in the late 1970s.

Another example of innovation kept from American consumers by bean counters - the greatest source of low quality products. Same reasons for so many vehicles with obsolete 1960 technology V-8s.

Again, why does low quality exist? This answer applies to all products and industries. Is it bad management? Or consumers that believe bad management lies blindly and completely?

Innovation (new designs) cost money. So bean counters cost control innovation to maximize profits (this year). As a result, profits (and markets) no longer exist in ten years. As Willian Clay Ford discovered when he replaced bean counter Jack Nasser in 2000. As Gil Amelio discovered when he replaced bean counters Sculley and Spindler in Apple. To increase profits, these companies had no new products in development.

So bean counters even blame unions. Still produce obsolete technology V-8s. And successfully brainwash many consumers with complete lies - such as blame the government or V-8s are better. They aren't. V-8s are trophies to what now harms America. And what explains low quality.

In the 50s and 60s, innovators (car guys) designed all cars. After the 70s, there has not been a GM product designed by an engineer except products made in America but designed in Europe.

In some American industries, quality is inferior due to who top management is. You are now beginning to see that in diminished quality of white appliances. In order to pay for expensive finance games, they even sold an innovation (Neptune series) to S Koreans. Why are so many white appliances coming from S Korea? Their's are designed by product people.

A massive merger of all white appliance manufacturers (Maytag, Hotpoint, Frigidair, KitchAid, etc) into a few companies is bean counters cutting costs to enrich themselves - at the expense of quality, the economy, and consumers. Just another example of how an industry known for high quality is beginning to show quality problems.

If not obvious, this is all about why low quality exists. Including consumers who encourage it by buying V-8s.

[RustyJC]

Much of the difference in automotive engine technology between the U.S. and Europe/Asia is due to taxation and other regulatory reasons. Vehicle tax in Europe has traditionally been based on engine displacement, so the European automakers have had to respond with high technology, small displacement engines to reach desired power levels. With no displacement limits and traditionally "cheap" fuel relative to Europe, U.S. manufacturers took the large displacement, low RPM approach to reach equivalent power levels.

Neither is necessarily better or worse than the other - they both got the job done in their respective marketplaces in their day. Globalization, emissions regulations, CAFE standards, etc. are moving technology toward the smaller displacement turbocharged engines we see today almost solely because they produce better numbers in government test cycles.

Rusty

[westom]

laknox wrote:
Apples and oranges. Most of our pickups couldn't carry that engine in the bed, let alone under the hood. They are long-stroke, high-torque, low-speed engines, designed to be run at constant speeds for long periods.

Explains why current technology 4 cylinder engines are better. But those pickups are marketed to people who love what is obsolete and low performance technology. Big engine with a loud exhaust is sold on a psychology of a big "hanging member" (a perfectly acceptable word gets computer erased). Louder exhaust is also a symptom of low performance and obsolete technology.

What engine is preferred in continents where conditions are more severe and engines must operate longer without failure? Where engine failure can even mean death? 4 cylinders from other countries where management believes in better products. Where management was not taught that a company's purpose is to enrich top management.

What defines better quality? Management that comes from where the work gets done. When management is driven by personal gain and short term profits (at the expense of long term profits and a healthy economy), then low quality (ie poor workmanship) is a first and obvious symptom.

Why did Ford shutdown two assembly lines in Mahwah NJ. Ford management was so cost controlling (so destructive) that drug use was widespread and rampant. Ford dealers in that NYC region even refused to accept products from that factory. Normal would be a car with a half eaten sandwich inside the door. Low quality directly is traceable to management that did not come from where the work got done. Quality defined by the attitude even of Ford's top man - Henry Ford.

Curiously, cars that have low performance engines also tend to have other failures such as broken door hardware, failed dashboard switches, and even faster tire wear. Curiously, low performance engines are often found in products that have other poor workmanship.

Subject is product quality. Better quality cars more often have higher performance engines. Those highest performance are 4 cylinders doing more (ie mileage, reliability, power) than obsolete technology V-8s once did.

[danrclem]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

danrclem wrote:
I know cutting costs so the final price is cheaper has a lot do with poor quality but I think there is another reason too. DRUGS! Where I work they don't even do a drug test anymore because most of the applicants can't pass it. The quality and turnover is unreal. I'll be glad when I finally get out of there.

This country is in trouble.

Well - *where* do you work? (Or what kind of work, etc.)

DRUGS:
When I worked at Douglas Aircraft back in the mid 60's, the third shift had a smoky haze floating over the shop areas.

My BIL worked at the Van Nuys (GM) Assembly plant in Van Nuys, same era. Same thing for the third shift there.

You wold be amazed at what the body shop there could do for Camaros and Firebirds with assembly "issues" - and how your new engine was "broken in"!

Not everyone was "zoned out" of course - but the point is.....nothing new, except maybe for the "menu".

Back to the post above - and the original topic of RV quality.......

....are the Amish doing drugs now?..:R
~

Well the Left Coast has always been different than most of the country. I have worked in the auto industry for a long time and while drugs have been used it's nothing like it is now. In the last two months we have had two worker's family members die from heroin overdoses. Most of the people who make excuses are the ones who use.

I guess the Amish do use drugs more or their help does anyway. Read this article. :R :R :R

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/business/failed-drug-tests-on-the-rise-for-rv-makers-and/article_dc6af269-82a8-5029-b13b-7098d16903d9.html

[westom]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
This thread *WAS* about quality of RVs.....now it's gone over to efficiency of various engines.

Engines are discussed because 1) everybody uses them , 2) it demonstrates why other products (not just RVs) have low quality, and 3) demonstrates how many will even deny what has been well understood and proven decades ago. And still some refuse to learn from these historical trends.

Water in Flint MI is a same problem created by the same "low quality is good" mentality. American steel is another example of why Americans lost jobs because steel industry management used spread sheet analysis to stifle innovation. To even enrich top management by destroying jobs.

Cited was another example of how to create low quality - use quality control inspectors. Topic was never about engines. Topic was always about why low quality exists.

V-8 engines are another example of why low quality exists. No half ton or one ton truck needs a V-8. Why do so many have these low performance engines? Difficult is to get those consumers to learn. So many are entrenched in obsolete technologies.

America prospers because and when so many others want innovation. Those consumers make America great. They don't buy American. Being patriotic, they believe in the antonym - the free market - buy the best. Therefore promote innovation and advance America.

Why do Japanese so honor an American named Deming? He taught Japan how to innovate. He bluntly cited reasons for low quality, job destruction, and obsolete technologies. How many Americans are still so poorly educated as to not even know who Deming is and what he taught? Why do some American auto companies still sell obsolete V-8 engines? They were cited by Deming for job losses, low quality products, higher costs, and loss of markets. American auto companies, whose purpose was to enrich top management, hated Deming, blamed employees, stifled a 70 Hp per liter engine (a 1972 innovation) for longer than most readers have existed, and are still highly praised by Americans who want obsolete technologies. In part, because advertising and spin (not knowledge) tells them to praise obsolete technologies - and resulting low quality products.

V-8 engines are discussed because obsolete technologies exist for the same reasons that low quality and inferior products exist. Include so many who still deny. Water in Flint MI exists for exact same reasons.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

danrclem wrote:
I know cutting costs so the final price is cheaper has a lot do with poor quality but I think there is another reason too. DRUGS! Where I work they don't even do a drug test anymore because most of the applicants can't pass it. The quality and turnover is unreal. I'll be glad when I finally get out of there.

This country is in trouble.

Well - *where* do you work? (Or what kind of work, etc.)

DRUGS:
When I worked at Douglas Aircraft back in the mid 60's, the third shift had a smoky haze floating over the shop areas.

My BIL worked at the Van Nuys (GM) Assembly plant in Van Nuys, same era. Same thing for the third shift there.

You wold be amazed at what the body shop there could do for Camaros and Firebirds with assembly "issues" - and how your new engine was "broken in"!

Not everyone was "zoned out" of course - but the point is.....nothing new, except maybe for the "menu".

OFF TOPIC:
This thread *WAS* about quality of RVs.....now it's gone over to efficiency of various engines.

Someone mentioned engines powering Class 8 tractors.
Another went out and bought a new pickup to tow his heavy trailer.

A singled Class 8 tractor makes an outstanding tow vehicle!
Tow anything you want with ease - stops great too.
A nice used HDT will last a lifetime in RV use, beats any of the "creature comforts" in a LGT -
(Little Girly Truck)- and the cost is way less than a new pickup.
In many states it can be licensed as a MH - standard DL or a Class A non-commercial (due to the trlr) is all that's req'd.

Back to the post above - and the original topic of RV quality.......

....are the Amish doing drugs now?..:R



~

[RustyJC]

Exactly which engine are you referring to as being an "apples and oranges" comparison? Are we talking about motorhome engines (check what's in diesel pushers - inline 6 cylinder diesels), Class 8 tractors (again, inline 6 cylinder diesels) or pickups (let me look under the hood of mine - yep, an inline 6 cylinder diesel).

If you want to talk industrial and marine engines, we can do that. I retired 1/1/16 after 42+ years service with a manufacturer of industrial engines and compressors (NOT Cummins), so let 'er rip. And, yes, I'm familiar with the superlongstroke crosshead-type marine engines, and they are pretty much a breed unto themselves with no semblance to automotive applications (e.g., uniflow 2 cycle diesels, many of which use turbocompounding to squeeze the last smidgen of efficiency from the fuel they consume).

Rusty

[larry_barnhart]

how many gas engines are a 6 inline engine of today. Really does not mean anything to me if I like an engine I will buy it. Now wanting to tow close to 40 K lbs with a small truck compared to the size of the trailer.

chevman

[laknox]

RustyJC wrote:

laknox wrote:

westom wrote:

Jayco-noslide wrote:
I really think that V-8's are pretty much obsolete except for very high performance and race cars.

V-9 engines need extra pistons because they are low performance engines. Even Indy no longer races obsolete technology V-8s. So why are so many RVs still powered by V-8s? Some RV manufacturers fear innovation and change. That explains poor workmanship in other parts of that RV.

Cr@p. It's called "reliability". You get more performance, more easily and with less wear and tear, out of a V8; simple as that. When you have to use blowers or turbos to stuff air into an engine, that means extra stresses and, usually, much higher RPM, to make the same numbers. The =main= reason that race engines are only 4 cyl, is to =limit= performance to =limit= speeds. Just like NASCAR uses restrictor plates on the super-speedways. Yes, we =can= get huge numbers from small engines, but I'll put up my 350 hp Genesis Coupe against an older Corvette, with the same output, and that Corvette will simply leave my Genesis in the dust. People forget about torque, which lower-revving V8s have the lock on. Why do you not see pickups with V6s in them to tow anything more than about 8k lbs? Simple, you just need more torque and performance than a V6 can give.

Lyle

Have you counted the cylinders in Class 8 tractors lately? Almost all over-the-road diesels, all the way up to the 13 and 15 liter classes, are inline 6 cylinders (turbocharged and intercooled, of course). The 6.7L Cummins inline 6 cylinder in my truck (see signature) is sufficient to handle a 39,100 lb GCWR and 30,050 trailer tow rating - that's plenty for my 19,000 GVWR Mobile Suites 5th wheel.

Rusty

Apples and oranges. Most of our pickups couldn't carry that engine in the bed, let alone under the hood. They are long-stroke, high-torque, low-speed engines, designed to be run at constant speeds for long periods. Hell the most innovative and =efficient= IC engine currently running is also the largest engine in the world. The Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96C, in its largest configuration, is an in-line, 14-cylinder monster, weighing in at 2,300+ tons. It is also the most efficient IC "production" engine, running at 50+% conversion of fuel to power. Even the best 4/6-cyl engines don't come close.

Lyle