American Eagle, Country Coach, Newmar

[piku]

Hi all, I was hoping to get some advice. We currently have a 1998 Winnebago Adventurer 32ft with no slides and are a family of 3 living in it. We've just recently completed a 2 month adventure across the country and back and have decided we kind of like living in a motorhome, trailer or something of the sort. We have some ideas about snowbirding. I've always been enamored with Wanderlodges but as time has passed I've come to realize I can't afford one, especially not one with a slide. Then I found out how heavy the steel coaches are and decided maybe it's not right for me.

Firstly, I don't hate our coach. The Adventurer is a good coach as far as gassers of the time period go, but we have delamination damage from leaks from previous owners and various fixtures and furnishings breaking constantly to the point of being annoying. All possible chassis issues, we've had from fuel pumps to broken head. I've kept up with everything but it's just getting a little tiring chasing the issues. Just yesterday the entry door handle broke in half. The thing I really can't handle anymore is the ride, the heat, the noise. I want a good ride and I hear the Spartan Mountain master chassis is smooth as glass because of the air suspension. I haven't driven one yet. Can someone comment on how it compares to an F53 chassis of the era?

My budget is around $70K. I'd like to find a coach that is around $75K and talk it down to $65K so I can get out for around $70K with tax. I am looking for a diesel pusher and garage kept/mint condition as well as quality and features are far more important to me than age or mileage. I've narrowed down my choices to Foretravel U320, American Eagle and Dream (1999-2002 range for these) and Newmar coaches.

Firstly, I think the American dream/eagle coaches look the best both exterior and interior. I'd love the light sand color sofas with a darker colored cabinet. I love the white exterior and light graphics. I saw a Foretravel U320 I loved but I really think I am stuck on wanting 2 slides. I like the idea of the pantograph doors and generator on a slide so I'd love to find an eagle but a dream works fine if it's right. I really like the overhead tv and console configuration of the 2001+ so I really think I have to stick with that. I've looked at the newmars and I really think the styling is all around god awful. I really don't know what people are thinking with green and purple furniture and other things I find configured. But still I feel like I should consider it. I don't prefer the looks of country coach (like the higher end looking Affinity model?) but it does look good enough that if it was substantially better I would hunt for that. Any comments? Any coaches I am missing?

Then I found out the 02 eagle has the 400HP ISL for around $15K more. Is the 400HP a screamer compared to the 350? Is it worthwhile to spend the money for it? I'm concerned with having enough power that I don't slow down to the point of being a danger to others. That is the case now. I don't have to beat on my rig now, but it gets slow and I am full throttle up any real grades. The general idea is to find something overpowered so it lives a low stress life and maybe will last longer.

I was wondering if people could comment on the delamination issues. One of the dreams I saw was delaminating between the rear slide on the driver side and the rear cap. The dealer claimed there were no leaks. It was a shame to walk away because the coach was priced right and ran great. Someone claimed the newmars can't delaminate but then I saw that the checking issue they have could turn structural. Does the checking issue date all the way back to 2001-2002 ish or is that a later problem?

Are the air conditioners on these models supposed to have filters at the opening? They do in our winnebago but didn't in the one we saw.

What issues should I look for? I know about the ball joints, I know to look for leaks. I know the fiberglass roofs of 2000+ are better, but what am I missing. I don't want to miss anything with this big of a purchase. How should I go about evaluating the engine and generator. Any issues to look for or any good prepurchase inspections that are nationwide that I could take the coach to?

We took a route which I thought was pretty gentle from Yellowstone to Rawlins, WY which inadvertently left us up a rather steep incline. I foolishly decided not to disconnect our toad and we took the incline at 15mph, slow enough that the torque converter even unlocked. No damage, fluid isn't burnt but I decided I had enough and I want a coach with some power.

I'm after 8mpg towing 5000 pounds and carrying about 2000 pounds of people and gear. Can I achieve this in one of these coaches at 60mph.. 65? 70? My impression that is that I will see 1100 miles out of a tank with the generator running at half load with the ISC 350. Is this the case?

On the dream we looked at the slide wouldn't go in the whole way. Is there an issue with the slides or powergear mechanisms on these?

The cruise control of my coach drives me nuts. On all the little dips when the speed drops a mph or two the cruise control promptly slams the throttle to the floor causing it to scream into 3rd gear unnecessarily. If it just gave 60% throttle or so and allowed some slowdown it would be less dramatic and the whole trip would be more relaxing. How does the cruise and gear selection with teh allison work? Do you find you can set cruise even towing and it deals with the smaller grades without any drama? I wouldn't mind a downshift but I don't want to go full throttle unnecessarily for fun. Save that for the real grades. Can I lock the allison into 5th or 6th or program the cruise control maximum throttle or things like that?

And speaking of grades what can you do on a standardish 6% grade? Mine will run in 3rd for a little but I end up in 2nd gear after a mile or two and down to around 30mph. Do the DP's tend to run like this as well? I would suspect not as I was passed by several going at least 55mph up the grade.

What about reliability? How many people actually get the bullyhooed diesel reliability? I hear so often about 90K mile and 110K mile rebuilds of cummins engines. Sounds like a travesty on a motor that expensive. We have 1400 hours on our gas generator. How many can you get on a diesel generator that is used often?

Any and all suggestions are welcome. I just want to know what kind of wrinkles I will be getting into. Obviously I am used to a nightmare owning a 1998 gas coach. Will the nightmare continue or are these coaches pretty reliable and do the furnishings hold up under careful care?

[piku]

Yep 🙂 We bought a 1999 42' U320. we took delivery on New Years Eve. It was a hectic experience because it wasn't the best dealer and I don't think they were planning on fixing all of the issues that we identified. But they did and we ended up paying much closer to asking then I'd like. But it is a beautiful coach with crazy awesome features and has a brand new full body paint done in 2010 by the Foretravel factory. It looks like a million bucks.

The first owner was dilligent in maintenance and spent a lot of money chasing things down.
The second owner, the one I bought from was not proactive but was willing to throw a ton of money at the coach reactively which sufficed. All in all the coach was unmaintained from 2011-2013 but everything seems to have survived.

The way it drives is amazing. It's like a night and day difference between the bagel (our old winnebago) and this thing. Silence, smooth ride, and corners very well. It's a cummins ISM 450HP. Most hills it doesn't even want to shift out of 6th gear. It definitely hits all my bullet points.

Only real issue I found so far is that on these 42' models (of which there are very few in the 90's) the front a/c sits beside the fridge. The exhaust fan causes a back draft into the fridge vent (up on the roof) which causes the fridge to stop working right. I put two oil cans in the way and viola fridge started working right again, so I'll have to install some kind of baffle.

[Mr_Mark1]

I see Piku (Mark) has a 1999 Foretravel in his signature. Congrats on your new coach Piku!!!

MM.

[bsinmich]

When you start looking for slides remember that Newmar was the first with production slides in 1990. They put them on more coaches in the 90's than anyone else. My Newmar AC is the quietest I have ever heard in any MH and this is my 4th MH. There are small filters at the cold air return inlet that I wash when they look dusty.

[roundnround_we_]

I know you started this thread 9 months ago, I haven't read it all either so I am not sure you found what you were looking for. But I just closed this page before finding this thread and here is what you were looking for just a little more than you wanted to spend. A Foretravel U320 http://motorhomesoftexas.com/coachrv/foretravel/2001--u320--40--C1719

[michelb]

Personally, I think the Foretravel does look nice but as mentioned, it's all about compromise.

From what I can tell, $70k might get you mid-late 90s Foretravel with no slides (personally that's where any consideration would die - I would never buy another mh without slides), or an early 00s American Eagle or Newmar MA or maybe Dynasty with 2 slides or a mid 00s Allegro Bus or a bit newer Phaeton or Newmar DS or Fleetwood Revolution with 3 or 4 slides.

Personally, I'd rather have the newer unit with more slides even if the trim wouldn't be quite as nice. Your M3 is a good example, there are tons of newer cars that will give you better performance and ride for equal or less money but there's something to be said about have an older classic ... myself, I'd take the newer car.

[smlranger]

I would agree that the Foretravel U320 is a tank compared to many others. I have a neighbor with an older 320 and it is still solid after many, many miles.

Unless you think the running gear has really been neglected, just plan on spending about $2,000 on a thorough chassis service; oil, filter, fuel filters, air dryer, air filter, chassis lube, new belts/hoses, coolant drain/flush/refill with long life coolant, tranny service. As you have noted, engine oil and tranny oil analysis can confirm a lot...either good health or neglect/problems.

When we got our new-to-us CC, even though there were service records and evidence of proper maintenance, we still had Cummins Coach Care go over the chassis and do additional maintenance that gave us peace of mind.

[piku]

I couldn't find any monaco model with a desk. And I *love* the styling of the 320. It's timeless.

And the foretravel is the first coach I've seen (other than wanderlodge) that doesn't use that GOD AWFUL rv wallpaper on everything. You know the stuf that peels back at the corners to expose the cheap luan underneath. The interior styling is tasteful and understated unlike a prevost or wanderlodge. Again, timeless. I'm definitely sold on an old foretravel or wanderlodge (if I can ever see one before I pull the trigger) vs anything else.

[Ranger_Smith]

prism wrote:

piku wrote:
I'm not afraid to get an air brake certification if necessary, as long as it doesn't cost a fortune. Right now I am living in PA but I am moving to Florida.

I must make the jump to top end. The question is which model in the top end. I've also ruled out Tiffin and Monaco. I've mostly ruled out Country Coach as well. I know wanderlodge is the better choice but I can't handle the interior stylings. Age and miles don't bother me, but I want the highest quality I can afford. To give you an idea, I have a 1996 BMW M3 with 240,000 miles. I'm not scared of fixing things but I don't want to encounter too many big problems I can't handle myself (because you have to pull the engine or trans, etc). More importantly when I go to do the work, I'd like to be doing it on a well maintained unit that isn't a rust bucket and has some thought built into the design.

Right now it is a tossup between a U270 36' and a U320 42', both not perfectly maintained and both not having good paper records but both clearly having conscientious owners with big wallets. I have to figure out if I want to pay $40K more for what the U320 offers - additional length, full body paint, porcelain tile floor, 40" samsung tv, walnut cabinets (highly desirable to me), desk, intellitec switches, halogen accent lighting, pantograph doors, aquahot, better bathroom configuration (toilet room), (much) bigger engine/trans, prosine inverter vs heart, in motion satellite vs none, bose system vs none, 3 a/c instead of 2, heat pumps instead of heat strips,

The U270 is what I "need" and it solves all of my current issues wtih my coach. It's bigger, more powerful, better towing, air ride, air levelling, higher quality and promotes the sense that it's worth spending money on, better equipment, etc. The U320 is my dream. I could not ever find anything I like more than that thing. It's perfect in every way except a lack of detailed maintenance records - still I'm not scared it has no bulkhead separation, foretravel just saw it, and I can get oil analysis done, and I am already budgeting for a trans failure that may or may not happen.

there are lots of Allegro bus,s and monaco dynasty,s and signatures that are a lot nicer by far than a ugly old 320

I agree

[prism]

piku wrote:
I'm not afraid to get an air brake certification if necessary, as long as it doesn't cost a fortune. Right now I am living in PA but I am moving to Florida.

I must make the jump to top end. The question is which model in the top end. I've also ruled out Tiffin and Monaco. I've mostly ruled out Country Coach as well. I know wanderlodge is the better choice but I can't handle the interior stylings. Age and miles don't bother me, but I want the highest quality I can afford. To give you an idea, I have a 1996 BMW M3 with 240,000 miles. I'm not scared of fixing things but I don't want to encounter too many big problems I can't handle myself (because you have to pull the engine or trans, etc). More importantly when I go to do the work, I'd like to be doing it on a well maintained unit that isn't a rust bucket and has some thought built into the design.

Right now it is a tossup between a U270 36' and a U320 42', both not perfectly maintained and both not having good paper records but both clearly having conscientious owners with big wallets. I have to figure out if I want to pay $40K more for what the U320 offers - additional length, full body paint, porcelain tile floor, 40" samsung tv, walnut cabinets (highly desirable to me), desk, intellitec switches, halogen accent lighting, pantograph doors, aquahot, better bathroom configuration (toilet room), (much) bigger engine/trans, prosine inverter vs heart, in motion satellite vs none, bose system vs none, 3 a/c instead of 2, heat pumps instead of heat strips,

The U270 is what I "need" and it solves all of my current issues wtih my coach. It's bigger, more powerful, better towing, air ride, air levelling, higher quality and promotes the sense that it's worth spending money on, better equipment, etc. The U320 is my dream. I could not ever find anything I like more than that thing. It's perfect in every way except a lack of detailed maintenance records - still I'm not scared it has no bulkhead separation, foretravel just saw it, and I can get oil analysis done, and I am already budgeting for a trans failure that may or may not happen.

there are lots of Allegro bus,s and monaco dynasty,s and signatures that are a lot nicer by far than a ugly old 320

[piku]

Haha, not loaded but not shopping above my means. This is my full time home after all which changes the equation for me.

[RayChez]

Piku, just get what ever you can afford. Sure!it is nice to own one of them high priced coaches. BUT! you do not want to live just to make the coach payment or spend all your hard earned money on something that will be parked most of the time. Give yourself some space and go out and enjoy what ever.

But if you are loaded with cash THEN go out and get a Prevost or a Newell. We middle class people will have to settle for the average coach.

[piku]

I'm not afraid to get an air brake certification if necessary, as long as it doesn't cost a fortune. Right now I am living in PA but I am moving to Florida.

I must make the jump to top end. The question is which model in the top end. I've also ruled out Tiffin and Monaco. I've mostly ruled out Country Coach as well. I know wanderlodge is the better choice but I can't handle the interior stylings. Age and miles don't bother me, but I want the highest quality I can afford. To give you an idea, I have a 1996 BMW M3 with 240,000 miles. I'm not scared of fixing things but I don't want to encounter too many big problems I can't handle myself (because you have to pull the engine or trans, etc). More importantly when I go to do the work, I'd like to be doing it on a well maintained unit that isn't a rust bucket and has some thought built into the design.

Right now it is a tossup between a U270 36' and a U320 42', both not perfectly maintained and both not having good paper records but both clearly having conscientious owners with big wallets. I have to figure out if I want to pay $40K more for what the U320 offers - additional length, full body paint, porcelain tile floor, 40" samsung tv, walnut cabinets (highly desirable to me), desk, intellitec switches, halogen accent lighting, pantograph doors, aquahot, better bathroom configuration (toilet room), (much) bigger engine/trans, prosine inverter vs heart, in motion satellite vs none, bose system vs none, 3 a/c instead of 2, heat pumps instead of heat strips,

The U270 is what I "need" and it solves all of my current issues wtih my coach. It's bigger, more powerful, better towing, air ride, air levelling, higher quality and promotes the sense that it's worth spending money on, better equipment, etc. The U320 is my dream. I could not ever find anything I like more than that thing. It's perfect in every way except a lack of detailed maintenance records - still I'm not scared it has no bulkhead separation, foretravel just saw it, and I can get oil analysis done, and I am already budgeting for a trans failure that may or may not happen.

[michelb]

A big part of buying RVs is compromise. You've mentioned a $70k budget so that's a big compromise. You also have to compromise on brand, model, size, engine, etc.

Before picking a model, I suggest you decide on exactly what you'd like and need.

Age: the older you get, the cheaper it will be but there's a technology and arguably a reliability cost. Would you rather have a lower end 2013 gasser or a top end 1997 DP ... (I suspect they would be about the same price)

Diesel vs gas: IMO, a DP is clearly a better machine than a gasser and has several advantages but it does cost more to buy and it does cost more to maintain. Also, usually you can get a bit to a significantly better mileage with a diesel than with a gasser but diesel usually costs 10-20% more at the pump so it's unlikely you'll actually see your fuel costs decrease (there are 2 many variables to really make a blanket statement here; a Sprinter chassis based mh might get 20+ mpg, an ISB (especially the old 5.9s) might get 10-12+ mpg, most of the DP engines will likely get somewhere around 7-9mpg. I think most gassers get around 6-8mpg. Mileage also does depends a lot on the speed, terrain, towing, etc so it's hard to accurately compare but the bottom line is that for the majority of mhs, there isn't a great deal of difference as far as fuel costs are concerned. One important factor though is that the engine / chassis really only matter when you are on the road - once you're parked (which for most mh owners, is most of the time (it's not uncommon for mh owners to barely put 5k miles / year on their coach)), it's just the floorplan that matters.

Sleeping capacity and layout: you mentioned 3. Are you looking for some sort of bunkbed floorplan? If so they do exist but that does limit your selection significantly. As far as the floorplan, an older model top end DP is likely to have less slides than a newer lower end gasser. Size is also a factor, if you want something under 36', there's not a lot of DP options, if you want something around 36-38, you can probably find many DPs and gassers, if you want something 39+, you pretty much have to get a DP.

Performance : the more you're willing to pay, the more performance you'll get. And other than the cost (and possibly a bit of an increase in fuel costs but even that I don't think is particularly significant), there's no real drawback to having more power. That said, other than specific high towing and carrying capacity requirements, even the smallest mh engine will get you where you need to go and up / down any hills to get there. Some are certainly faster but I don't think you'll be able to find any road where an Cummins ISB260 won't get you there and you must have an Cummins ISX

Towing / carrying capacity : Pretty much all mhs can tow 5k, most DPs will do 10k, some will do as high as 15k. Carrying capacity depends a lot on the specific motor home. It also depends on how you travel - if you don't usually travel with full water, you can save a lot there.

Brand / models : You listed American Eagle (near top end of Fleetwood line), Country Coach (high end builder but still had fairly wide range of products) and Newmar (high quality builder but has wide range of products). You're coming from a relatively low end, basic coach and you are mentioning some of the higher end products. Maybe you don't need to make such a jump; maybe a low-end or mid-line coach will have all the features you are looking for and still be a huge increase over your current one. Also, personally, I find that there isn't a huge difference between comparable products from different manufacturers: a top-end Tiffin is probably pretty close to a top-end Newmar and to a top-end Entegra, etc.

Licensing : Not a huge issue but depending on where you live, you might need a higher class license to drive heavier and / or vehicle with air brakes (e.g. my wife could drive our old gasser but she does not have the license required to drive our mh. She doesn't want to drive it anyway but if I was ever sick or hurt, we wouldn't have the same options).

[dcbopp]

Hey Piku, I see you're still looking. Did you find anything good about Safari Panther 425 's ? They have Hurricane heating systems which I think are better than Aqua hot. Are you in Mass.? If so, you're probably too far away to look at mine. David