How many of us are there? Owners of Dodge based RV's?

[whiteknight001]

I'm new here, and curious.

How many of us in Class C own Dodge B300 incomplete
cab/chassis based RV's? I know two others- Steve aka
Ripsaw, with a 1977 Brougham, and Leroy aka 1978_Dodge
_Delta who owns a 440V8 powered sharp looking 1978
Delta RV. I would like to ask, and offer, help, idea
swapping and comparing notes on our particular RV's
which are based on the Dodge B300 van chassis.

Yeah, I know. These are low tech, podgy old RV's that
would be considered "entry level" for folks like me,
but I have a deep and abiding respect for the quality
of these old "monsters of the open road". And anyone
wanting to pick brains, joke about, share notes or just
brag about our old A- Dodge-io's are certainly welcome
to PM or email me. Between all of us we can form a real
good support group, and help each other with problems
we know we'll encounter with an older vehicle.

Sure. I'd love a new RV. But I'd rather have an older
one already paid for, and a lotta great memories. Call
me frugal, an old hippie, or whatever you will. I'm proud
of my old land yacht.

Mopar Madness Manifest in the flesh,

Mark aka White Knight

P.S. Mine's a '72. Is there an older one out there someone's
motorvating in? Maybe even a Travco? W/K

[Ballenxj]

Griff in Fairbanks wrote:

Actually, I was eventually going to suggest -- make that recommend -- running a completely new ground. That is precisely what I do to head off potential ground problems.
<---- snip ----->
I wish I had a dollar for every missing engine to frame ground strap I've run across. In each case, putting on a new ground strap caused the vehicle to work better, with most of the gremlins disappearing.

I've encountered several cases where wonky gauges were due to loose/corroded/dirty/greasy connections on the engine's negative battery cable.
<----- snip ------>
Whenever I work on reviving an old vehicle, I start by replacing both battery cables. The slight additional cost is worth all the headaches replacement prevents.



When I get back to building my motorhome, I will be running a heavy copper wire the whole length to make sure I have a good ground available.

Grif has provided some excellent advice and suggestions here. Usually most, if not all elecrical problems start with wonky grounds. Aside from dead shorts, of course.

[Griff_in_Fairba]

eyeteeth wrote:
Go away for a few hours, and see what happens?

Griff, I wasn't working on the RV, but we were still using it very regularly. Currently, the RV is at a campground. I have a busy couple of weeks and knew I wasn't going to have time to work on it, but wanted to try and gather some resources and develop a plan. I don't know current volts on the battery, but 5/6 of the lights in the RV work fine, water pump is good, the 12v fan in the bathroom works when shore power is disconnected. The charge indicator on my converter isn't lit at the moment, so I'm not sure the battery is currently charging when connected.

One question in my mind... is it easier/better to run a completely NEW ground for a circuit, or try and fish out, and correct/repair the current. (If that is in deed the issue).

Actually, I was eventually going to suggest -- make that recommend -- running a completely new ground. That is precisely what I do to head off potential ground problems.

A decade or so ago, my 1990 Ford E-150 van started "eating" alternators. After several warranty replacements, in periods ranging from weeks to days, the store manager gave me my money back and asked me (very nicely) to go somewhere else. We eventually figured out that a faulty ground was frying the alternators. Ran a wire from the alternator frame to a known good ground and the alternator worked fine up until last winter when it just plain wore out.

For years, my boat trailer had intermittent issues with the lights not working. The problem was parts of the trailer couldn't be tightened enough to prevent ground issues. I just rewired the trailer and added a dedicated ground wire to each of the lights.

I wish I had a dollar for every missing engine to frame ground strap I've run across. In each case, putting on a new ground strap caused the vehicle to work better, with most of the gremlins disappearing.

I've encountered several cases where wonky gauges were due to loose/corroded/dirty/greasy connections on the engine's negative battery cable.

Whenever I work on reviving an old vehicle, I start by replacing both battery cables. The slight additional cost is worth all the headaches replacement prevents.

On boats, I always run a ground wire the length of the boat and tie everything into it. All battery negative terminals are tied to this and these ground buses are terminated with a bronze ground plate below the waterline on the outside of the stern. Stray electrical currents are a very real issue with boats so "bonding" a boat's electrical system and hardware is critical to preventing issues up to and including sinking.

When I get back to building my motorhome, I will be running a heavy copper wire the whole length to make sure I have a good ground available.

It may be a bit of overkill but I believe "if in doubt, run a ground wire."

In your case, once you've verified that you have a ground issue, I'd run new ground wires rather than trying to find and correct the existing ground problem. (This is one of the few cases where I recommend a "patch" solution rather than finding and fixing the actual problem.)

To be perfectly honest, I am less than impressed with the electrical systems in many older motorhomes. Through ignorance or attempts to cut costs, many manufacturers used components that are inadequate, poorly design and/or built, or designed for uses inconsistent with their use in motorhomes.

One of the other people ask if your problems appear or disappear when you're using the batteries alone, the converter alone, or both together. This is a very valid question because power converters, and the way they're connected into the system, often create issues that far outweigh their convenience. In one case, I ran across a power converter, effectively hardwired to the batteries, that wasn't much more than a crude test-bench power supply. Every time it was plugged in it overcharged the batteries and boiled away the electrolyte.

Eventually, I'll be going into the issues created by multiple battery banks, power converters, and battery chargers. I'll also discuss ways to connect and use them that avoids the headaches they can create.

[eyeteeth]

Go away for a few hours, and see what happens?

Griff, I wasn't working on the RV, but we were still using it very regularly. Currently, the RV is at a campground. I have a busy couple of weeks and knew I wasn't going to have time to work on it, but wanted to try and gather some resources and develop a plan. I don't know current volts on the battery, but 5/6 of the lights in the RV work fine, water pump is good, the 12v fan in the bathroom works when shore power is disconnected. The charge indicator on my converter isn't lit at the moment, so I'm not sure the battery is currently charging when connected.

One question in my mind... is it easier/better to run a completely NEW ground for a circuit, or try and fish out, and correct/repair the current. (If that is in deed the issue).

[Griff_in_Fairba]

Okay, here we go ...

Yes, most automotive electrical books tend to focus on the battery and gloss over aspects of the electrical system. This is for two reasons: One, the battery is (one of) the key source(s) of electrical energy and, two, the battery is the most visible component and therefore tends to get blamed for electrical problems that likely originated elsewhere.

For those of you who have newer vehicles (less than 15 years old), the electronics in your vehicle create a constant small drain on the battery to maintain their state. The design assumption in newer vehicles is they will be run every week or two, causing the battery to be recharged. Unfortunately, over longer periods of inactivity, the electronics can drain the battery completely and lead people into thinking they have a bad battery.

At CarQuest, whenever nearby soldiers and airmen returned from a lengthy deployment, we'd get a steady stream of people wanting new batteries. (Or, wanting warranty replacement for relatively new batteries.) In our somewhat chilly temperatures in interior Alaska, this drain often led to frozen batteries with cracked cases. (My daughter barely escaped this fate when she was deployed to Iraq.)

In another case at CarQuest, a customer wanted a replacement battery because his "wouldn't hold a charge." I put his battery on our tester and it checked out fine. With a little bit of sleuthing, we discovered he had a bad voltage regulator, which meant the battery was going dead because it wasn't receiving a charge. With a $20 replacement regulator and his original battery, everything worked and continued working for over three years, which is when I last heard from him.

So, to boil down several chapters worth in most books, batteries go dead because they're old, too small, have dirty/corroded/greasy/loose connections, overcharged, undercharged, boiled dry, have contaminated electrolyte, and/or are asked to support loads in excess of system capacity. (The last one is directed at those with big booming stereo systems and lots of high intensity lights.)

Let's start by looking at the standard automotive electrical starting and charging system that has remained relatively unchanged for the last roughly 55 years, since manufacturer changed from generators to alternators.

The battery's primary purpose is to provide a large burst of energy to the starter to crank over the engine. It's practical to think of this as the battery's only purpose.

Prior to the advent of electrical starters, vehicles didn't need batteries. They got all the electricity they needed from magnetos just like pull-start lawnmowers today. Unfortunately, hand-crank and kick-starters could cause serious injury if timing was off and they weren't used correctly. (Long ago, a motorcycle kick starter gave me an opportunity to inspect the front tire from an unusual angle, resulting in bruises and missing skin when I landed. It may also have contributed to my current knee problem.)

Early batteries and starters weren't very efficient so only one or, at most, two starts was all you could get before the battery was completely drained of its charge. The fact that early electrical systems were 6 volt, instead of today's 12 volts, didn't help. (That's why hand-cranks and kick-starters stay around so long.) Even today's large capacity efficient batteries would only have been good for a few starts before becoming completely discharged.

Obviously, some means of charging the battery enroute was need if you wanted to be sure you could easily start your car for the return trip after reaching your destination. Initially, cars used generators that produced direct current (DC) because alternators produce alternating current (AC), which didn't work for charging a battery.

The addition of batteries and generators allowed the use of new-fangled things like electrical headlights, taillights, brake lights, turn signals, horns and so forth. The result was an electrical supply and demand arms race that was only limited by the ability of heavy, relatively inefficient and complicated generators (and batteries) to supply current.

In the 1960s, affordable silicon diode rectifiers, which convert AC into DC, became available, allowing the use of more efficient and powerful alternators to replace the generators. (How the rectifiers work is kinda cool and I can provide a layman's description, if anybody's interested.)

This all led to the charging system still used today without any major changes, other than increases in efficiency and capacity. (Unfortunately, increased capacity led to rolling boomboxes and light shows.)

Notice that I didn't mention any significant use of the battery other than for starting the engine. I'll touch on this again in my next post, when I discuss how an alternator charging system works and the battery's relatively minor other role in the whole electrical system.

[Griff_in_Fairba]

Leeann wrote:
Well yeah. Duh.

I figured that'd be your response. Wondering if other people feel likewise.

beniam wrote:
You guys are amazing,especially the tip,on dealing with frustration,don't drink,and no gf,I am up a creek??

Sounds like a personal problem to me. (Sorry, I'm an irreverent retired Master Sergeant and old habits sometimes comes back.)

Before I start, some general thoughts, using some things I've said over the years:

"You can move a ton of gravel with a VW bug ... but, there may be a faster and more economical way."

Too many systems have problems from people trying to do too much with too little resources in too short time. This especially applies to vehicle electrical systems. All projects require three general resources: Labor, Time, and Material. You can augment one of these resources by trading one or both of the others, typically through the use of money. (i.e., sell some of the resources to buy the resource you need more of.)

This is a revision of the old "You can have it all, have it done quickly, or have it done cheaply ... one or two but NOT all three."

"The fact that it takes one women nine months to produce a baby doesn't mean you can put nine women in a room and expect to have a baby after one month."

This one is a paraphrase of the principles in Fred Brook's "The Mythical Man-Month." I used it initially in a loggerhead discussion with a Colonel. (Not his fault, it was the early 80's and computer technology was still a tremendous mystery to "real people.")

Oh, by the way, some smartass pointed out you wouldn't get any babies if you didn't throw a few men into the room with the women.

"We never have time to do it right but always have time to do it over."

"That's the way we've always done it."

These two quotes are from other people, describing approaches that tend to raise my hackles and drive me up the wall.

The first describes a common state of affairs in the military and other government agencies. Throughout my military career I had the attitude of "Do it right or don't do it at all," sometimes even risking disciplinary action. Unfortunately, this also describes many people's approach to motor vehicle repair and maintenance.

The second raises my hackles when people's rigid adherence to "the way we've always done it" impedes progress and improvement. I'll agree there's validity in doing things the "old way" and newer isn't always better. (On a consulting contract in the mid 80's, my recommendation to the client was to sell his computers and have his office go back to the way they've always done things.) However, it's worthwhile to balance that with a willingness to examine and employ the "new whatever" if it makes things better.

"If we built houses the way we build software, we'd all still be living in caves."

This is another of my quotes that embodies the belief that you should look outside you own narrow field of endeavor for principles that allow you to do your tasks better. In our case, that means "thinking outside the box" and using materials and techniques from other areas to improve our motorhomes.

Finally, any system that is extremely complex, doesn't do what it's supposed to in a reasonably economical and simple fashion, and/or requires lots of "bug hunting" and maintenance is an indication it's been kludged together, repeatedly been patched, poorly designed and/or outdated. Too me, someone needs to take a look at what the system is supposed to do and, taking note of historical experience, redesign and rebuild the system from the ground up. (In other words, if you find yourself fixing the same damn problems over and over again, you need to look at how you're approaching the problems.)

I would call myself a "one-way, opinionated, stubborn SOB" except my dad married my mom three years before I was born. On the other hand, I've been right more often than not and have managed to do things other people thought was impossible.

[beniam]

You guys are amazing,especially the tip,on dealing with frustration,don't drink,and no gf,I am up a creek?? the tracing of ground problems will certainly give me a starting point, got the motorhome up in Plainview,because dealing with code enforcement,is no easy task had leak in cabover thought had it resolved ,but during last torrential flood found it still leaking,will neeexpwrtize d to remove the wpoof around front vent.Thought with going back with marine grade plywood,but don't know?Any suggestions would be appreciated also front window,in cab over seems to be letting moisture in.Don't know if I can still find gasket to replace,wish I had the expertise, to remove,and just fill in with the sheet metal,thus reducing future problems,without making it look like a patch job?Thanks..Nice to follow this in my inbox..Great group...

[Leeann]

Well yeah. Duh.

[Griff_in_Fairba]

Addendum: TreeSeeker's comments regarding the battery, converter, and need for a "known good" 12v source is dead on ... listen to him.

Now, a question for everyone: Should I continue posting the results of my research and experience with vehicle electrical systems?

I have decades of training and experience in systems analysis and design, combined with extensive experience in applied research. My goals have always been top-notch practical functionality and reliability. I'm a firm believer in KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) and believe all systems should do what they're supposed to do, with a minimum of human intervention and maintenance.

I can ... and someday may ... write a book on vehicle electrical systems, focusing on boat and RV systems. (It's on my to-do list ... somewhere around page 20 or 30.)

[Griff_in_Fairba]

eyeteeth wrote:
Since I am back to working on the old girl, I once again have a few questions.

Next project I need to take on, is my DC seems to be taking a dump. It started with an interior, and the exterior light. Then included a DC power source and the TV antennae booster... now it seems to have crept to the other side and taken out the other DC power source...

All fuses are good. I'm thinking they simply lost ground. But... I'm not much into electrical. So, what is a good procedure to test/repair?

On a side note... Part of why I had disappeared from the forum for a while was lack of funds to do anything. Another victim of the economy... ended up letting a number of things go. Still having problems getting extra $$$ to get the parts, be decided I wanted to keep the old RV going. I became rather discouraged when I discovered I need to do a lot of work in the cab over area. Not sure how, where, or when to tackle that... still debating really. But either way, I need to get electrical working properly.

Thanks.

Try not to get too goal oriented. It took me decades to learn to relax and not try to get everything done right now, all at once.

As much as I'd like to get my house, boat, and motorhome projects done, I'm only one person with somewhat limited resources and had to learn to relax and take it one step at a time. Whenever I get frustrated with progress, I have to remind myself that a large project is simply a lot of small projects collected into a big pile. (This attitude is especially important to keep my 30% service connected disability for chronic depression at bay.)

Your instinct regarding faulty ground is very good. (Ask Leeann about a ground wire connected to a fiberglass body.) I find faulty grounds to be one of the most bedeviling aspects of vehicle electrical work, mostly because the intended ground path is not readily apparent.

It's easiest to start by thinking of each circuit as being a simple loop. In it's simplest form, a circuit starts with a wire connected to the battery's positive terminal, which goes to a switch. From the switch a wire goes to the load (light, motor, etc.) and, from there, back to the battery's negative terminal via the vehicle's ground path.

One thing that tends to trip me up is ground-side switching, where the positive wire goes to load first and then to the switch before going to the ground.

You're correct in believing the vehicle's frame (and/or metal body) is the most common ground path. For manufacturers, it's the most convenient. Unfortunately, steel is not the best conductor and is prone to corrosion, which further reduces it's ability to carry electrical current. On most vehicles, the battery's negative terminal is connected to the engine block via very heavy wire. In turn the engine block is connected to the vehicle's frame and/or body via a ground strap, which is often a bare, flat braided wire affair.

These two connections are often the primary source of ground problems, including engine ignition problems. Good, clean negative battery clamp is vital. Likewise, the connection to the engine block must be clean, tight, and grease-free. (All grease, except dielectric grease, is a fairly good electrical insulator.)

One very common problem is missing engine-to-frame/body ground strap. I can't count the number of cases I've found where someone failed to reconnect the ground strap when replacing or working on an engine.

To start, check quality of those two ground connections. Also, make sure your battery is in good condition and fully charged before looking for circuit problems.

Then, get a length of automotive wire equal to 1-1/2 times the length of your vehicle and two alligator clips. Connect one end to the battery's negative terminal connect the other end to individual loads (i.e., lights, motors, etc.) If the load starts working (or working better), you've found a ground problem. Then, all you have to do is work backwards to the battery to find the problem. (Finding the problem sounds simple but can be frustrating -- alcohol and good sex alleviates the frustration and helps you relax.)

For background, I've been working successfully on electrical circuits almost 50 years. In the early 70's, I tore ALL the wire out of my '49 International Metro and strapped an all-new wiring harness from front to back.

I could go on and on but I think this is enough for now. Post your progress and I'll add more troubleshooting, repair, and upgrading info.

(Last night, I was working on designing the electrical system for the boat I'm building, with a pile of improvements over what most manufacturers do.)

[Griff_in_Fairba]

goreds2 wrote:
Has anyone worked on a 1989 Dodge Xplorer? I am having trouble with the drivers side electric window. Is the panel easy to remove? Hopefully, it just fell off of the track.

1. Go to the library (The brick-and-mortar early version of the internet) and look at the Chilton/Motor/Haynes manuals for '89 Dodge Vans. Some contain sections on body work that might cover window regulators.

2. Find a good parts store with a counterperson knowledgeable on interior trim work and pick their brain. (Avoid the arrogant fools who think you should already know.)

The door panels are held on by screws (visible) or body clips (hidden). The screws are easy but the body clips are a pain. There are tools available to help remove the clips. Usually, I wind up damaging the clips. Fortunately, replacement clips are available, with the primary issue being finding the ones that match yours. (When I worked at CarQuest, I usually had to look through the paper catalog or check 20-30 boxes to find the ones the customer needed.)

Also, if it is just the glass off the track, you'll need the right adhesive to (re)secure the glass in the regulator channel. With the door panel off, a good auto glass shop should only charge a small fee to reinstall the glass. (The door panel tends to be the labor-intense part of this project.)

While you're in there, you should at least lubricate the regulator. I'd use spray white lithium grease. If you have the money, you might also want to replace the motor and/or regulator. (My personal inclination would be to renew everything in the door to avoid having to remove the door panel again.)

[TreeSeeker]

Eyeteeth,

I forgot to mention in my previous post, first you need to know if you have a good 12v DC source. If you don't have that, then the problem is not in the wiring. Thus my suggested tests in my previous post.

[TreeSeeker]

Eyeteeth,

They are mostly about batteries

Batteries are important. Did you check your battery? Has it been getting charged regularly (since you mentioned you haven't done anything on your RV in a long time)? What is the voltage at the battery? At the light sockets?

Is your DC circuit running off the battery right now, or off the converter? If the converter is plugged in then the 12v system is being handled by the converter.

Do the lights work when the converter is plugged in?

Do the lights work when the converter is not plugged in?

What is the incoming voltage at the 12v fuses?

That should be enough to get you started. If you don't have a multi-meter you need one.

[Leeann]

Hiya, eyeteeth!

You can try contacting Monaco (they own Holiday Rambler) and see if you can get a manual from them. Apparently, depending on the rep you get, you can get a copy of the original owner's manual.
1-877-466-6226

I don't have a Holiday Rambler or Monaco diagram for you, but these are from my Concord (made by Champion):

[eyeteeth]

Thanks Tree Seeker, I've seen a couple of those already, and really don't get me where I want to be. They are mostly about batteries... not the wiring itself. Maybe someone has previous experience or advice on the subject. All the wiring is, of course, hidden. In walls, ceilings, panels, etc. One of the items I can't seem to find, is how the DC works. My thought is it grounds to the Frame... but I really can't find a confirmation. If that is the case... Can't I just run new grounds to the frame? Does that cause problems? I can't 'find' where the current DC is connected to the frame anywhere... maybe that too is inside the wall? What is the accepted means to add a new ground? How do I get it to the frame? If the Engine battery is grounded to the frame... and the house batter is grounded to the frame... wouldn't that cause some weird problem/hazard?

[TreeSeeker]

Eyeteeth,

These articles should get you started.

BATTERIES--AND OTHER ELECTRIC STUFF

The 12v Side of Life

Intro to Dry Camping

Battery Education