cancel
Showing results forย 
Search instead forย 
Did you mean:ย 

Step one. Bought the van.

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Hello Everybody,
First post.
I camp a lot in tents but after spending three days straight in a tent in the rain at Dolly Sods I swore I'd make a change.
Here it is.


Bought it Wednesday.
Drove it home today.
1999 Ford E-250, 6 cylinder, 125K miles.
Was a home builders work van. Some slight surface rust.
Cargo doors a bit dinged up.
I'm planning on doing a full conversion. Most of the work I'll do myself but some will be beyond my abilities. I'm giving myself a deadline of no later than spring. Van won't fit into my small garage so that will affect how/when I can work on it.

I've been reading this and other conversion forums for a few weeks. It's been a huge help so far. Learned quite a lot already but there's still a lot I don't know. Counting on the pros who frequent this forum for some advice.

Advice like: The previous owner drilled some 3/4 inch holes in the floor for bolted down shelving. Whats the best way to cover these holes from underneath? Should I treat the metal edges of the holes before I start?

Thanks for your time, now and in the future.
WVvan

P.S. I'm thinking of call it "HAL the Van".
Why HAL? Well since my name is Dave....

Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG
619 REPLIES 619

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Hey Landyacht,
You obviously know your stuff. I'll have to build a sanding block like you describe.

Sofa-bed continued:

Back to the End Piece.
Glue on a new edge strip to replace the one I had ruined. To prevent a recurrence of the laminate burn while trimming I read that you can use paraffin wax. So that's what I did. Just rub the edge of a block of paraffin along the laminate where the router bit's pilot bearing will make contact. Put it on thick.


As you can see here, the paraffin did the trick. No laminate burn.


I'll use paraffin on the rest of the edge trimming where burn could be a problem. Hopefully as I do more of this I'll get good enough to where it won't be needed.

Flip the right End Piece over so that we're looking at it's right side or exterior side. Need to drill holes through the sheet of Formica laminate that I installed on the opposite side. Use the holes on this side as a guide for the drill.


If you remember from earlier in the build I have extra holes showing. Only drill the holes that I had previously marked before dissembling the sofa-bed.


Here's how it looks on the other side when done.


In the close-up view you can see chipping around the new holes. This isn't going to be a problem since all these holes will be covered by wood blocks, metal angles or hardware sliders.


I was going to cover the opposite side of the End Piece with laminate when I got to thinking. The original plan was to have the bolts that hold everything together extend through the exterior side of the End Pieces. Then use washers and bolts to secure them in place. That is how I've done it so far in this project every time I've assembled/disassembled the sofa-bed.


But two things got me to thinking. First was when I saw how easily Formica cracked. Since I'd not worked with Formica before I hadn't realized that.


Second thing is the amount of deformation that a nut with washer causes on the side of the plywood. When you combine those two I knew I had a problem.



The original plan would most likely cause some nasty looking cracks on the Formica surface. Time for Plan B.

WARNING: I've not had a chance to fully test this out. It seems like it should work but I can't guarantee it yet.

Get a whole bunch of T-Nuts .


The T-nuts will be mounted inside the End Piece and then complete covered with Formica so there shouldn't be a cracking problem. The bolt ends will not extend through the Formica so it should also look a lot cleaner.

I'm using two sizes 1/4" and 5/16".


The 1/4" and 5/16" refer to the inside threads. The T-nut will be countersunk into the End Piece. To do this I need to find what the outside diameter (O.D.) of the T-nut shank is so to know the size of the hole to drill. This is a drill gauge. It's a series of holes with the diameters listed. I'll use it to get the T-nuts O.D.


If you ever want to get one of these gauges just sign up for a woodworking magazine then let the subscription lapse. Thereafter you will periodically get letters offering a "Special Renewal Rate" for the magazine along with a "Free Gift". A drill gauge is often the "Free Gift". For the 1/4" T-nut it looks like I'll need a 19/64 drill bit.


I want to drill the hole just deep enough to seat the T-nut. Use masking tape to mark the bit so I'll know where to stop drilling. I actually have drill collars but masking tape works just fine.


The "T" part of the T-nut also has to be countersunk. Use a spade bit for this. It's fairly easy to eyeball what size spade bit is needed. For the 1/4" T-nut it's a 3/4" spade bit.


Here's how the hole looks after drilling.


I do a test fit of the T-nut upside down so I'll be sure that the "T" head will sit below the level of the wood before installing it.


Use a hammer to install the T-nuts. I use the orange colored punch (with the hammer) to be sure the T-nuts are below the level of the surrounding plywood.


Installed all the 1/4" T-nuts. Now use the 5/16" ones. First get the O.D.
Oh Look. It's different drill gauge. 3/8" drill needed.


Spade bit for a 5/16" T-nut is 7/8".


The exterior side of the right End Piece with all the T-nuts installed.


continued -
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG

landyacht318
Explorer
Explorer
The picture where you show your sanding block has me wanting to pass on some knowledge gained from having shaped and fiberglassed hundreds of surfboards.

Assuming you do not have tiny hands, the Ideal sanding block, IMO, is a truly flat piece of 1/2 5/8 or 3/4 inch thick many layered stable plywood that nicely fits one full sheet of sandpaper. Approximately 11 x 6 x 5/8 inches The sandpaper need only be bent over the sides and overlap to the top about a half an inch. It is important to pull the sandpaper tight when you do the initial creasing of the sandpaper.

This wide block is easy to keep flat, or at the desired angle. Just holding it in your hand keeps the sandpaper tight to the block.

On one side of the block I have slightly rounded edges the other is perfectly square, for getting into corners when needed. I generally have 6 grits of paper ready to wrap around the block. 36,80, 100 150 220, the goal moving to the higher number grit quicker.

After I have a nice flt piece of plywood, I like to cover it with poly urethane, so when I am wetsanding, it does not absorb water and swell and warp.

I have found in some stages is is beneficial to have 1 layer of that anti slip material one puts in cabinets/ drawers/ shelves and under carpeting, between the block and paper.

Just folding sandpaper and not using a block is rarely a good Idea. Instead of taking down the high spots, one tends to push them around the work. It also wears down the sandpaper faster.

Worn sandpaper not only requires more pressure and effort, it produces more heat, which can be highly undesirable.

I have found the best sandpaper easily obtainable is the Norton 3x in the 60 80 120 150 grits. The other stuff is a waste of time money and effort in my opinion. 3m is always good, especially in the higher grit numbers.

I do use files a good amount but find they do not always cut fast enough or become clogged to easily on wood or fiberglass, then I take the edges off the worn out sandpaper from my blocks and bend them tightly around the file, for those tighter areas.

I have done a bunch of laminate work, trimming with the router, and using both a file and my sanding block with 220 grit paper. I prefer the 220 grit(preferable slightly worn) and the block, and only using it pushing toward the work. and running a finger over the edge after each pass to make sure I go no further than needed.


I also have some custom made sanding blocks that I apply "Grip tape" to, like what they put on the surface of skateboards. I also use "feathering disk adhesive" to attach paper to some sanding blocks. This sticky glue never dries, and you can peel the worn paper off fairly easily (easier when warm/hot)and apply new paper, about 3 to 5 times before an application of more adhesive is required. This works good on surfaces where you are prone to rip the sandpaper, rendering it useless.

Since sandpaper is not cheap, this are the methods which promote the longest life of the paper, and these methods and variations of them are used in most every surfboard building and boat building factory on the planet

Wrkn2mch
Explorer
Explorer
Dave....
many have helped me on various other forums i belong to and i like to give back when it is possible.
Joe

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Thanks again Joe,
I'll follow your advice when it comes time to do the cabinets. Since so much of what I'm doing on this van project is new to me it's nice to get feedback from people who actual do know what they're talking about.
Dave
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG

Wrkn2mch
Explorer
Explorer
WVvan wrote:
Thanks Joe,
I've been using sandpaper for the final smoothing. Will I get a finer finish with a hand file or will it be about the same. If it's the same or better might be time to invest in a fine hand file. Probably save money over the long haul apposed to using up the sandpaper.
Dave


You will get a better finish with the hand file.... the finish will be shiny and less chance of scratching the surrounding work.... the sandpaper takes longer and the look is a little duller on the edges which is still acceptable.
If you have a medium grade metal file laying around ( medium is really good once you get the hang of it and not press too hard)try a little inconspicuous spot to see how you like it....never file "up" as you could possibly lift or chip the fiberglass....always "down" from the newest laid section that overlaps the previous..... you'll get a much cleaner edge.
When doing final cleanup try not to soak the edge joint too much as the cleaner could "Lift" the edge.
Joe

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Thanks Joe,
I've been using sandpaper for the final smoothing. Will I get a finer finish with a hand file or will it be about the same. If it's the same or better might be time to invest in a fine hand file. Probably save money over the long haul apposed to using up the sandpaper.
Dave
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG

Wrkn2mch
Explorer
Explorer
for someone that never did formica work i have to say you have a natural talent for it and it looks really good..... a real fine hand file on the edges when done will get rid of that sharp edge (file in the down position only)..... the talent you show fabricating that complete bed/sofa is outstanding. (wish i could do as neat a job fabricating as you did) LOL...... will be watching this thread with interest.
Joe

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Sofa-bed continued:

I've laminated the outside edge of the sofa-bed's right End Piece with Formica. Now to cover it's left side. Since this is the right End Piece the left side faces the interior of the sofa-bed.


Hand sand the surface with 80 grit sandpaper wrapped around a wood block. Remove the sawdust and wipe off the surface to be sure it's dust free. Apply the contact cement. Since the plywood is porous and soaks up the contact cement I apply the first coat to the End Piece then when done move to the Formica and apply a layer. By then the first layer on the End Piece is dry so apply a second layer to the End Piece.


Wait until contact cement on the End Piece and the Formica has dried and is tacky. Place these thin strips of plywood on the tacky surface of the End Piece. All the on-line laminating instructions have you using wooden dowel rods but scrap plywood works just fine. Use enough scrap pieces so when the laminate is placed on top the two glued surfaces won't touch.


Flip the laminate so the glued side is down and place it on the scrap plywood pieces above the End Piece. DON'T LET THE TWO GLUED SURFACES TOUCH!
With the laminate resting on the scrap wood move it around till it's positioned how you want it. Carefully remove the center most wood scrap and press down on the laminate till it makes contact with the End Piece. Hope you had everything lined up because it is now officially too late. Moving from the center out remove the remain wood scraps but Don't press down on the laminate.


Take your J-Roller and start rolling from the center outward. I used something like a ever expanding spiral pattern of concentric circles for the first rolling. If there are any air bubble under the laminate this should force them out. Then roll it some more trying to cover the entire surface at least once. Pay extra attention to the areas close to the edge. If the laminate ever comes loose it will probably be at the edge.


Now to trim the edge of the new laminate. This will be a different than the first trim I did. When I trimmed the first edge piece the surface that the pilot bearing of the router bit rolled against was bare plywood that was going to be covered later. If I made any mistakes they would later be hidden. Now the pilot bearing will be rolling against a piece of laminate I had previously applied. Not much room for error, as I was about to find out.

The laminate instructions I read referred to "burn" and how to prevent it. One way was to spread liquid hand soap on the laminate surface the pilot bearing would contact. So that's just what I did.


Here's the view from underneath after running the trimming bit for a short ways. Everything looks OK. But this was on the straight part of the trim.


Problem is when I got to the curved part of the End Piece I slowed down the forward movement of the hand router. I was attempting to be extra careful while cutting around the curve. BAD MOVE!
I ended up ruining the edge piece I had so carefully applied the day before. Since the contact cement was still fairly new I was able, with the help of a paint scrapper, to remove the damaged edge piece. Here it is. Bummer. Forget about using the liquid hand soap.


When you read about laminate "burn" now you know what it looks like.

While rethinking my strategy for the End Piece I went ahead and laminated the sofa-bed's Kick Board. It's a simple rectangle and no laminated edges to burn so it was easier.




While trimming the Kick Board laminate I learned a few things. I could move the router faster while making a trim. I didn't have to go as slow as I had been moving. Less chance for burn.

After a long cut check the pilot bearing on the router bit. It can become gummed up with glue. Also check the cutting edges.


After cleaning the bit, oil the bearing.


Now had less trouble trimming the Kick Board.


After trimming the edge there will sometimes be some excess glue left over.


You'll need some mineral spirits (paint thinner) and elbow grease to remove it. The mineral spirits doesn't dissolve the glue but makes it easier to rub off the underlying surface. Rub being the operative word.


continued -
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG

Wrkn2mch
Explorer
Explorer
You have it down perfectly....... small router, the correct bit (be certain that bearing always spins free on the shaft free of any glue or it will burn the surface)..... when the sides are done i use a belt sander to let the top surface level and true..... when you do put the top on and then trim it with the router just take a hand file and finish the edge for a finished professional look.
The roller you have is a good choice but most of the times i just use the block of 2x4 you have pictured and just bang away and even use it to slide along the edge to be certain that the top meets the edge perfectly.... pay very close attention to being certain the edge is perfect..... If you make a mistake you can sometimes get a small scraper in between and pout some thinners / acetone in between to get them apart.... I like thinners

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Hey Joe,
Thanks for the help but I've already finished most of the laminate work before I started posting about it. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your advice.
Dave

Sofa-bed continued:

I'm going to start work on the right End Piece. Use the workbench vise to hold the End Piece.


I'll put laminate on the edge first. Prep the surface by sanding with 80 grit sandpaper. Wipe off the surface after sanding.


Earlier in the project when I was gluing the foam to the fiberboard I accidentally bought this can of Original Formula Contact Cement (the flammable kind). I can't use it with the foam but it will be perfect for Formica.


Here is the back side of the edge strip before I start applying the contact cement.


Brush on the contact cement and allow it to dry. This is how it appears after it dries. It has a glossy look and will be tacky.


Apply contact cement to the edge of the End Piece.


Edge pieces require extra adhesion so after the first coat dries add a second.


I don't take any pictures since my hands were full but after everything had reached the proper level of tacky I placed the laminate strip over the end piece and set it down. I started near the center and worked out from there. Once the strip touches the treated wood it will stick but good. You won't get a second chance so you might want to practice how you're going to handle the strip before you start applying the glue.

For the next step I'll be needing a new tool. This is a J-Roller. The contact cement directions advise using 25 pounds per square inch to completely join the laminate to the wood surface.


Use the J-Roller to apply that force to top of the laminate. Start from the center and roll to the edges. Since the J-Roller has a 3 inch wide roller you need to really press down to apply the recommended PSI.


After I was finished with the roller I let the laminate set a couple hours before I started the trimming.


I'll use a router to trim the edge of the laminate. I already have a couple of heavy duty routers but they would be a bit unwieldy for this work. I bought this small router from Harbor Freight. It cost $24.99. In case you're not familiar with Harbor Freight they sell inexpensive foreign made tools (mostly China). Since I won't be doing a lot of trim work the router will only have limited use. I didn't want to spend a lot of money on it.


There is a lot of plastic bits. Hopefully I don't break it before I'm done with it.


To trim the Formica I'll be using a flush trim(or cut) router bit. Here's a good description from rockler.com.
"Flush trim router bits are guided by a pilot bearing that is the same size as the bit's cutting radius. They're used to trim the edge of one material flush with the edge of another material. Trimming a veneered surface flush with a substrate, or using a pattern to create multiple identical shapes are examples. The pilot bearing may be on the top of the bit, at the base of the cutting edge, or both."

As you can see the pilot bearing is at the bottom of this bit.


The router will produce a lot of shavings so I moved operations to the garage area.


In lieu of the workbench vise I'm using the edge of the table saw, a clamp and the ubiquitous cat litter bucket to hold the End Piece in position.


Here is a before and after look of what the trim router does.


Here's the router in action.


Mistake #1: I have the router bit extended too far below the edge of the laminate. The bit should just clear the lower edge of the laminate. I corrected this after I figured it out.
Mistake #2: If you were to look at this edging strip from above you'd see that in relation to the End Piece I'm moving the router in a clockwise rotation. THIS IS WRONG. I should be moving the router in a Counterclockwise direction. I found that if you move the router in a clockwise direction the bit will take a more aggressive cut of the laminate (bad) and it wants to move away (outward) from the edge you're trimming. I don't want a aggressive cut because if it takes away too much I've ruined the laminate. I want it to be less aggressive because I can always sand it down if it leaves some laminate behind .

Did I mention the router makes a lot of shavings?


After finishing with the router I used 100 grit sandpaper along the edge of the laminate for a final smoothing.


My first ever Formica edge. Looks really nice.


Unfortunately I'll end up ruining it. But that's tomorrow.

continued -
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG

Wrkn2mch
Explorer
Explorer
Try this all on a small piece of scrap first for some practice

I used to work in a formica shop fabricating modular type furniture and there a few different ways to do it and this is just a little tip to make things go easier for you...

When cutting formica I usually use a large table saw but you could use a small hand held finish router for a cleaner cut but you could easily turn the saw blade around om your skil saw the opposite direction and run a piece of masking tape up the cut line and proceed to cut......

Gluing:
I usually do the sides first then belt sand it down after a trimmer cut ...
Now for the top part........... After belt sanding the plywood real good clean off any particles (or it will show thru the formica)glue both the sides to be joined and wait til it looks dry (about three minutes) put small strip boards on top of the plywood and lay the formica on that and remove the center board first and work out towards edges... ( when you get real good you won't need the strip boards)... when it's on the plywood i use a block of 2x4 at hand size and easily bang it all over to get a good adhesion and pay special attention to the edges..... when that's all done i use my small router with a well lubricated bearing on the end of the blade ( so it doesn't burn the formica)and cut around the circumference and finish off with a hand file going in the proper direction...
This takes a little practice and using a small 12"x12"x3/4" piece of plywood to practice will save you lots of aggravation.
You do really good work and i have been following this thread for a while now
Joe

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Sofa-bed continued:

I'm going to finish the End Pieces of the sofa-bed with Formica. I've not really messed with Formica before so this will be a learning experience. All I know I learned from reading the Internet and the back of the contact cement can. Anyone reading this who wants to point out my mistakes go right ahead. I sure do.

Warning: I learned this the hard way. If you bend Formica too far it will snap. The problem is the broken edges. They can be as sharp as a razor blade. If you're not careful it will cut you long, deep and awful.

Here is full sheet of Formica as I brought it back from Lowe's. Take a friend or get a sale associate to help you roll and tie the sheet. It's a lot harder than it looks.


First things first. Disassemble the sofa-bed. Paint what won't be covered with Formica. Thanks to landyacht318 for pointing out that I need to also paint the unseen bottom edges of the plywood furniture. Else if you spill water it could be absorbed by the plywood and cause it to swell.


Before you unroll the Formica be sure to sweep the floor clean. I'll come back to this.

The sheet is 4' X 8'. It takes up a good bit of space.


Mistake number one. I made a point of cleaning the floor before I began. But I forgot to mind the string that I cut off the roll. Sure enough it fell below the Formica and I happened to step right where the string was. That small knot is all it takes to make a crack in the sheet.


Here's Bob pointing out my mistake.


Bob loves to gloat.


Lay out the pieces I'll be covering on the sheet to get the best idea how to cut it up. Then mark the sheet with pencil. You cut the Formica so it's larger than the surface it will be applied to. The edges are trimmed down later.


The sheet was too large to feed through my table saw. To cut it I stacked four 2x4's in sets of two to raise the sheet off the floor. Place the cut marks between the two sets of 2x4's. Then used a circular saw to make the cuts.


This cutting method works well enough since the pieces will be trimmed later so the cuts don't have to be exact.


If you're using a circular saw you're supposed to cut the sheet from the bottom side to reduce chipping at the cut edges but I don't find the chipping to be that bad.


I was unable to cut around the small cracked spot but I arranged the pieces it so it shouldn't be visible when all's done.

continued -
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG

McZippie
Explorer
Explorer
WVvan wrote:
Webasto is a German company but they have an American branch.
Webasto US webpage

The company also has a tech web page where you can download all the different installation and operational manuals in English .

This is a link to the installation manual for the Air Top 2000 (pdf).

The unit has a negative ground.

There is another German company that makes a similar product. The company's German name is Eberspacher (the "a" should have two dots on top) but they use the name Espar in America and Canada.
Here's Espar's web page.



Next week I'm getting an Espar Airtonic D4 installed under a sofa/bed. http://www.espar.com/html/products/airtronic4.html

WVvan
Explorer
Explorer
Webasto is a German company but they have an American branch.
Webasto US webpage

The company also has a tech web page where you can download all the different installation and operational manuals in English .

This is a link to the installation manual for the Air Top 2000 (pdf).

The unit has a negative ground.

There is another German company that makes a similar product. The company's German name is Eberspacher (the "a" should have two dots on top) but they use the name Espar in America and Canada.
Here's Espar's web page.
Open the pod bay doors Hal.

Once I exit Hal, this is what I do.
WWW.WVBIKE.ORG

doughboy81972
Explorer
Explorer
ok I could be wrong but that is written in German how do you know what is says and if it is like some of the European cars it is a powered ground sorry lost my thought
Steven 44
1 dog
IL Rallies attended :B:B