Tires - To Sipe or Not to Sipe Toyo M154s

[KendallP]

Hey gang,

I'm leaning a certain direction, but I'm interested in your opinions without the influence of my research.

Normally, I would not consider siping in favor of buying the right tire for the job and letting the engineers of the manufacturer decide how much or little siping to add.

But this is one case where I would consider it. Read on to find out why.


The Rig:
2004 Winnebago Journey 34H DP on a Freightliner Chassis
GVWR - About 28,000 lbs

OEM Tires:
Michelin XRV 255/80R 22.5

Replacement Tires:
Toyo M154 265/75R 22.5
(The last set of these went 10 years and looked like new, inside and out, with 10,000 miles on them)

Driving conditions:
Mostly Oregon and western states
Wet, dry. Hot summers. Rarely snow, but possible.


Unlike the Defender LTX M/S tires on the wife's Highlander, these particular Michelins have a very poor reputation for early sidewall cracking and such. And... as "luck" would have it, they must have worked a deal with Freightliner in order to get their own, proprietary tire size for these rigs.

The similarly-sized, Toyo M154s are known to be one of 2 preferred replacements for the way-overpriced Michelins. Toyo considers them All-Position commercial tires. "Recommended" for steers in long-haul, regional and urban. "Suitable" for drives in regional and urban, but for trailer when it comes to long-haul. Makes sense to me. I usually see more aggressive tread on the commercial drives around here. Of course... tires like those would be louder than these Toyos.

The tread patterns are very similar, but I noticed what almost appears to be aftermarket siping in photos of the Michelins and Michelin does brag on the siping in their description.

The Toyos have already been installed by Les Schwab Tires. They still performs the siping service. Since they were installed so recently, they want $113 total to remove, sipe and replace all 6. Definitely not doing that for profit. Especially since the rubber alone weighs almost a hundred pounds. I would require they still warranty the tires in writing.

Note: I was able to resize the Toyo photo, no problem. But I keep running into a stretching issue with the Michelen. It's a 3x2 aspect ratio. Resizing to 600x400 or 300x200 should work, but it doesn't. It stretches it really wide. So for now, you're stuck scrolling to read. Sorry.

[KendallP]

donkeydew wrote:
sure have the one that sticks out was getting caught on the ice field parkway in blizzard conditions all the way to lake Louise not fun but no problem with the tires they held the road much better than i would have thought they would

Well that's really comforting.

Thanks!

[donkeydew]

KendallP wrote:

donkeydew wrote:
i am on my 3rd set of toyo's.
i have driven the motor home all over the western us and northern canada in all kinds of weather with out a problem.i would save the money on siping them.

Most helpful post yet. Very reassuring.

Thanks!

You say "...in all kinds of weather..." Does that include snowing and sticking? Or just snowing? Have you driven that 40 foot DP on snow-covered roads and on ice with those Toyos?
.

sure have the one that sticks out was getting caught on the ice field parkway in blizzard conditions all the way to lake Louise not fun but no problem with the tires they held the road much better than i would have thought they would

[KendallP]

donkeydew wrote:
i am on my 3rd set of toyo's.
i have driven the motor home all over the western us and northern canada in all kinds of weather with out a problem.i would save the money on siping them.

Most helpful post yet. Very reassuring.

Thanks!

You say "...in all kinds of weather..." Does that include snowing and sticking? Or just snowing? Have you driven that 40 foot DP on snow-covered roads and on ice with those Toyos?
.

[KendallP]

valhalla360 wrote:
So 3 comments and they are horrible tires? That's hardly a decent sampe size.

There is a difference between saying they are "suitable" and saying they are "not recommended"...you are adding something that isn't there.

1. Nope. The "comments" are all over the RV forums. The reviews on Tire Rack were simply to point out the likelihood of very low aftermarket sales. Why do you suppose that is?

2. No I am not. I've provided the links. The Toyo website says they are "Recommended" for steers and "Suitable" for drives. I'm sure anyone else reading this thread will understand Toyo isn't just stating that for no reason. And once again... on their website... if you search "Drives"... the M154s will not show up.

Here's the page again

And sort of interesting... the Toyo.ca page is slightly different. This is the one I linked in the OP (at the time... I hadn't noticed it was the .ca version.) "Recommended" for steers and "Suitable" for trailer for long haul and drives for urban and regional. On this page you have to click the blue application button to see this.

[valhalla360]

KendallP wrote:
Responses in blue below...

valhalla360 wrote:
You were the one indicating it was MH owners. Quote: The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements. Yes. And?

Lots of comments are just as likely a result of them being a commonly available model. If 1% of people complain, you will have far more complaints from a tire that sells 100,000/yr vs one that sells 20,000/yr. You yourself, indicated the Michelin was a popular tire for this application. When? They came with the rigs. And I said there were only 3 reviews on Tire Rack... with the first review in 2011... meaning they've likely been for sale on that site for at least 10 years. That doesn't ring as very popular to me.

If Toyo says they are "suitable" as drive tires, they are suitable. "Suitable?" Yes. "Recommended?" No.

If you think you know better than the manufacturer, go for it. As stated many times... I don't. And I'm not planning on siping the tires.

So 3 comments and they are horrible tires? That's hardly a decent sampe size.

There is a difference between saying they are "suitable" and saying they are "not recommended"...you are adding something that isn't there.

[donkeydew]

i am on my 3rd set of toyo's.
i have driven the motor home all over the western us and northern canada in all kinds of weather with out a problem.i would save the money on siping them.

[KendallP]

Responses in blue below...

valhalla360 wrote:
You were the one indicating it was MH owners. Quote: The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements. Yes. And?

Lots of comments are just as likely a result of them being a commonly available model. If 1% of people complain, you will have far more complaints from a tire that sells 100,000/yr vs one that sells 20,000/yr. You yourself, indicated the Michelin was a popular tire for this application. When? They came with the rigs. And I said there were only 3 reviews on Tire Rack... with the first review in 2011... meaning they've likely been for sale on that site for at least 10 years. That doesn't ring as very popular to me.

If Toyo says they are "suitable" as drive tires, they are suitable. "Suitable?" Yes. "Recommended?" No.

If you think you know better than the manufacturer, go for it. As stated many times... I don't. And I'm not planning on siping the tires.

Thanks for weighing in.

[valhalla360]

KendallP wrote:
1. I was not talking about design. There a tons of reports, here and other sites, of very early sidewall checking on the Michelins, despite very little UV exposure. I don't know where you got that MH owners are critiquing the design. They're simply reporting what happened to their OEM tires. Perhaps Michelin has solved that problem. If more owners hadn't felt burned by Michelin, I'm sure more of them would have stuck with the OEM tires to find out.

2. The manufacturer designed the Toyos to be best suited as steers. If you go to the webpage for these tires, you will see them "Recommended" as steers and "Suitable" as drives.

And if you click "Drive" tires, "22.5" on the same Toyo website, you will not see the M154 model listed.

The problem is, Toyo doesn't have a drive tire anywhere near the same size as the OEM. Nor does anyone else that I could find.

You were the one indicating it was MH owners. Quote: The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements.

Lots of comments are just as likely a result of them being a commonly available model. If 1% of people complain, you will have far more complaints from a tire that sells 100,000/yr vs one that sells 20,000/yr. You yourself, indicated the Michelin was a popular tire for this application.

If Toyo says they are "suitable" as drive tires, they are suitable.

If you think you know better than the manufacturer, go for it.

[KendallP]

rhagfo wrote:
I actually had used tires sipped at LS, they were about 50% tread and had poor wet traction. I had them sipped and far less tire spin on take off.

Of course this is anecdotal, but you appear to have had some very noticeable benefit from the siping. Perhaps it wouldn't have helped when new, but it obviously did down the road, as it were.

Thanks for weighing in.

[KendallP]

toedtoes wrote:
That you have voiced several times a dissatisfaction with the Michelin tires, just makes all this seem silly. Why would you even consider trying to duplicate a tire of which you think so poorly?

Not the tread design, nor the ride, the grip or the noise. But the durability. I have voiced that several times in this thread, as well. One need only look as far as the OP to read, "...these particular Michelins have a very poor reputation for early sidewall cracking and such."

Here again... the Toyos were not designed to target the motorhome market. They're website lists them as "Recommended" for steers and "Suitable" for drives... on commercial vehicles. They happen to come in a rare size that compares to the OEM tires and many owners have reported much satisfaction with them... including the prior owner of the subject rig.

The Michelin website makes it clear that the XRV is targeted to the motorhome market. One could only assume that means they are meant to be "Recommended" as both steer and drive tires. Perhaps the siping has something to do with this? I don't know.

Anyone reading through this thread is probably sick of seeing me repeat all this by now.

And it doesn't matter. My decision not to sipe was all but made before I started the thread. I've made that clear, as well. I asked for opinions... because I felt this was a unique case... and I think I've got yours.

Thanks for weighing in.
.

[toedtoes]

KendallP wrote:



The point here is... they appear to have opted for some kind of siping... that looks a bit like aftermarket siping... for these tires targetting the motorhome market.

The question is, should one consider trying to mimic that with aftermarket siping... if... like many... you are not confident in the OEM Michelins... and you know there are very few options for replacement of this proprietary tire size.

No, on should not try to mimic the Michelin patterns.

The Michelin tire already has that siping done PRE-market. For whatever reason, they feel it is good for THEIR tire. If you buy their tire, you get the siping.

The Toyo tires are NOT the michelin tires minus the siping. They were developed and manufactured independently of the Michelin tires. So trying to reproduce the siping of the Michelin onto the Toyo is ignoring all the development that Toyo put into their product. You would be wrongly assuming that because Michelin siped their tires that any tire put on the MH should be siped.

That you have voiced several times a dissatisfaction with the Michelin tires, just makes all this seem silly. Why would you even consider trying to duplicate a tire of which you think so poorly?

[KendallP]

rgatijnet1 wrote:
Since the siping on the Michelin tire picture is curved/angled in the top picture it certainly looks like it was molded rather than someone taking a heat knife and cutting uniform angle cuts along the edge. Way too labor intensive for production tires.

That's what I've been thinking.

The point here is... they appear to have opted for some kind of siping... that looks a bit like aftermarket siping... for these tires targetting the motorhome market.

The question is, should one consider trying to mimic that with aftermarket siping... if... like many... you are not confident in the OEM Michelins... and you know there are very few options for replacement of this proprietary tire size.

As I've mentioned, prior to writing the OP, I had opted to leave well enough alone. I just don't see enough legitimate evidence that it's helpful. Plenty of anecdotes. But little real evidence.

Perhaps with the siping, the Michelins may offer better wet, snow and ice traction. Who knows. But the channels in the Toyos ARE deeper... which is certainly a plus in the rain.

As an aside... I believe there haven't been any recent studies on aftermarket siping because... so many mud, snow and all-season tires already come chock full of sipes. So the motivation to run expensive tests is very low.

This thread marks a very unique situation... which was always the point... where there really aren't well-siped options for this unique tire size beyond the flawed OEM.

Thanks for weighing in.

[KendallP]

Blaster Man wrote:

LouLawrence wrote:
No siping. Run the tire the way it was designed.

Agree, not necessary.

Thank you for weighing in. This was my conclusion as well.

[KendallP]

valhalla360 wrote:
Who are these people you keep referring to? The average MH owner has little to no knowledge of tire design...so your assertions regarding quality are suspect to begin with.

I stand by my original statement that if it was needed, the manufacturer would provide it.

1. I was not talking about design. There a tons of reports, here and other sites, of very early sidewall checking on the Michelins, despite very little UV exposure. I don't know where you got that MH owners are critiquing the design. They're simply reporting what happened to their OEM tires. Perhaps Michelin has solved that problem. If more owners hadn't felt burned by Michelin, I'm sure more of them would have stuck with the OEM tires to find out.

2. The manufacturer designed the Toyos to be best suited as steers. If you go to the webpage for these tires, you will see them "Recommended" as steers and "Suitable" as drives.

And if you click "Drive" tires, "22.5" on the same Toyo website, you will not see the M154 model listed.

The problem is, Toyo doesn't have a drive tire anywhere near the same size as the OEM. Nor does anyone else that I could find.

The Toyo M154s are very close in size to the OEM. The speedometer might run a mile or two off at 60 mph. Yokohama makes one that guys seem to like and a few other manufacturers do as well. I believe I was able to find 6 brands / models. My research indicates that the majority of owners have opted for these Toyos.

So partly because the OEM tires were a proprietary size, the Toyos are considered by many owners of Freightliner DPs... that came with the Michelin tire in question... to be one of the best options for replacement of the OEM tire that was known to have premature checking issues.

And yes. I respect your decision to stand by your statement. Hopefully that means we can both move on.

Cheers