Wrong Pump in AZ

[fischer]

Just read about ging to the wrong pump in Arizona at truck stops. If you have 3 axels or over 26,000 lbs rig and your diesel. Fine is 1000 dollars if you use the car pumps.
Did you big guys already know this

[Trumpet_Player]

msmith1199 wrote:
Bligh is just being completely ridiculous now. I understand perfectly what Rollnhome wrote and no where at all does he claim that AZ law requires a special license to drive an RV! He's saying the complete opposite.

Well... if I misunderstand the statement from Rollnhome of "You can not drive any vehicle classified to carry passengers with an ADOT RV class license,
I apologize. Then what is an ADOT RV class license? There is no ADOT RV class license. Arizona has license classes from A-D as stated in ARS 28-3101, with class D being the class of license that most folks have to operate a car or light truck. Specifically, a class D license allows the operation of a vehicle that does NOT exceed 26,000 lbs. However, under ARS 28-3102, a class D license is approved to operate "Recreational vehicles" with ratings in excess of 26,000 lbs. Not a special license or "ADOT RV class license," simply an approved exception/exemption.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood what was attempting to be said by Rollnhome.

[Rollnhome]

For those that do not quite get it or need special explanation.

28-3102. Exceptions to driver license classes; definitions
A. Notwithstanding section 28-3101, a person who operates an authorized emergency vehicle, a farm vehicle or a recreational vehicle may operate the vehicle with a class A, B, C, D or G license.

These are the class licenses ADOT requires by statute to drive any RV; hence ADOT RV class licenses and do not require any special endorsements.

This is from ADOT Commercial License information web site.
"Finally, successfully complete all applicable knowledge testing. Use the Commercial Driver License Manual as a study reference. The manual is available online or at any CDL office. For CDL offices outside the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas, an appointment is required to take the knowledge tests. You must pay for the class of license prior to taking the test. The fees are:

Class A or B permit, no endorsements: $25
Class C permit*: $12.50 (must have a P endorsement; HME not allowed on Class C permits)
Doubles/triples trailers endorsement: $10
Tank endorsement: $10
HME: $10
Motorcycle endorsement: $ 7
School bus** endorsement: No fee
Passenger endorsement: $10
*NOTE: A Class C CDL must include a Passenger or HazMat endorsement, although, only those applying for a Class C with a Passenger endorsement will be issued a permit. Class C permits can not be issued with a HazMat endorsement.

**NOTE: To add a passenger and/or school bus endorsement, you must obtain a CDL instruction permit with the passenger and/or school bus endorsement for the class of bus you intend to drive. Then, you must take CDL pre-trip, basic controls and road/skills tests in the appropriate class of bus/school bus.

For more information, please see our Permits FAQ."

Again for those needing special explanation. RV and passenger vehicles are different non interchangeable classifications of modes of transportation. Primary difference is one is a commercial vehicle one is a private vehicle. Another major division between the too one is a light class vehicle one is a use vehicle. As defined by 28-5601.
Your conclusion may differ....
I'm tired of beating this drum. If you disagree you disagree. I have better things to do.

[msmith1199]

Bligh is just being completely ridiculous now. I understand perfectly what Rollnhome wrote and no where at all does he claim that AZ law requires a special license to drive an RV! He's saying the complete opposite.

[Trumpet_Player]

Rollnhome wrote:
Lbigh wrote:
Also I find it humorous that I believe that the same guy trying to cite this information is the guy that yesterday stated that in Arizona it required a special license to operate a motorhome in excess of 26,000 lbs. He was wrong there also.

I hope your not talking about me.

"Rollnhome wrote:
Also note a MH in Arizona requires a different drivers license than a passenger carrying vehicle. Therefore they are two different types of vehicles."

Yes the RV definition was taken from the ADOT license section. Find a better ADOT definition of RV and I will accept it.

Again from ADOT license:
NOTE: To add a passenger and/or school bus endorsement, you must obtain a CDL instruction permit with the passenger and/or school bus endorsement for the class of bus you intend to drive. Then, you must take CDL pre-trip, basic controls and road/skills tests in the appropriate class of bus/school bus.

This shows that a passenger and RV license are two differt type of vehicles. The license examples clearly show that an RV including those over 26K does not require a special license, whilst a vehicle carrying passengers does.
Again RVs and vehicles carrying passengers are two entirely different classes of vehicles. Therefore the type of vehicle you are driving is reflected by the license ADOT requires you to obtain. RVs are not listed as use vehicles ....the only other category is light class.
To summarize if your 26k+ motorhome was considered a vehicle for carrying passengers according to ADOT you would need a passenger endorsement on a CDL.

I would recommend that you go back and look at ARS 28-3102 again. ARS 28-3102 is SPECIFICALLY a supplement to ARS 28-3101, the State of Arizona statute on drivers license classes. The supplement, ARS 28-3102 is a list of EXCEPTIONS to drivers license classes. Nothing more or nothing less. Hopefully you understand that driver license classes have nothing to do with ARS 28-5432.C which is the list of EXCEPTIONS for the ADOT diesel fuel tax. Then in another post, you talk about a "ADOT RV class license." There is NO SUCH THING! It appears that you do not understand ARS 28-3101 or ARS 28-3102. You know, this isn't like a buffet where you get to pick and choose what you want with pieces of statutes and then get to try and blend them together to fit your ideas. Right?

[Rollnhome]

Absent an ADOT definition of passenger carrying vehicle. The ADOT license classification of RV vs Passenger shows there is a difference in vehicle classifications.

Other wise you would need a passenger endorsed CLD to drive a motorhome over 26K lbs. This is evident because the RV is excluded from the other three classes by definition.
I think we need to access the total of what has been gleened rather than depend on one specific piece; which does not appear to exist.
You can drive any RV with ADOT passenger endorsed CLD. You can not drive any vehicle classified to carry passengers with an ADOT RV class license.

The conclusion I draw from this is that ADOT recognizes vehicles that carry passengers is a different class of vehicles than RVs. Therefore RVs are not passenger carrying vehicles.

You can take it from there.

Dennis, I agree Arizona should have defined "passenger carrying vehicle".

[msmith1199]

But Dennis, I think that absent a definition in AZ law that the standard definition of the term should apply. And the standard definition every place else is a vehicle that carries passengers for hire. If AZ didn't intend that meaning, then they would have simply said "vehicle."

[Executive45]

Rollnhome wrote:
AZDOT definition of Recreational Vehicle taken from:

Arizona Revised Statutes - Title 28 Transportation - Section 28-3102

"Recreational vehicle" means a motor
vehicle or vehicle combination that is more than twenty-six thousand pounds gross vehicle weight rating and that is designed and exclusively used for private pleasure, including vehicles commonly called motor homes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers, boat trailers and horse trailers used exclusively to transport personal possessions or persons for noncommercial purposes.

Here is the list of "use vehicles"

A "use class motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that uses use fuel on a highway in this state and that is a road tractor, truck tractor, truck or passenger carrying vehicle having a declared gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds or having more than two axles.

A passenger carrying vehicle is defined by USDOT as: simplified... A bus or motorcoach ( tour bus) designed to carry 15 or more passengers./snip/

I'm not sure this discussion needs to compare AZDOT definitions with USDOT definitions. One's State and one is Federal...States generally don't like Federal interference...It would be nice if Arizona codified "passenger carrying vehicle" somewhere, anywhere.....Dennis

[Rollnhome]

I think he enjoys it. I'm not playing the game anymore. I hope I have contributed some useful information.
I truly believe RV are not included in the use fuel tax. I also believe you may never see that written in black and white by ADOT.

[msmith1199]

The rest of us knew what you meant Rollnhome. You didn't say MH required a commercial license, that was a guy that responded to you. The "Passenger Carrying Vehicle" is what requires the CDL, not the MH. You're statement was just that they required different licenses, which is 100% accurate. Bligh is just doing anything he can to provoke things.

[Rollnhome]

Lbigh wrote:
Also I find it humorous that I believe that the same guy trying to cite this information is the guy that yesterday stated that in Arizona it required a special license to operate a motorhome in excess of 26,000 lbs. He was wrong there also.

I hope your not talking about me.

"Rollnhome wrote:
Also note a MH in Arizona requires a different drivers license than a passenger carrying vehicle. Therefore they are two different types of vehicles."

Yes the RV definition was taken from the ADOT license section. Find a better ADOT definition of RV and I will accept it.

Again from ADOT license:
NOTE: To add a passenger and/or school bus endorsement, you must obtain a CDL instruction permit with the passenger and/or school bus endorsement for the class of bus you intend to drive. Then, you must take CDL pre-trip, basic controls and road/skills tests in the appropriate class of bus/school bus.

This shows that a passenger and RV license are two differt type of vehicles. The license examples clearly show that an RV including those over 26K does not require a special license, whilst a vehicle carrying passengers does.
Again RVs and vehicles carrying passengers are two entirely different classes of vehicles. Therefore the type of vehicle you are driving is reflected by the license ADOT requires you to obtain. RVs are not listed as use vehicles ....the only other category is light class.
To summarize if your 26k+ motorhome was considered a vehicle for carrying passengers according to ADOT you would need a passenger endorsement on a CDL.

[msmith1199]

jlabr2 wrote:

lbligh wrote:
I believe that you will find that you never "declared" any weight information in the registration process. Normally, all registrations use GVW information. Normally "declared" weight information is used for weight fees only when vehicles want to avoid weight fees knowing that they will always operate under the GVW of the vehicle.

Yes, I did not declare any weight because my coach is not commercial. However, when I registered my work truck when I trucked for the local Cat dealer, I had to declare a weight which was printed on my registration. To me this is the main difference on how this tax pertains to different vehicles.

That clearly is an indication that it was the intent of the legislature not to apply this tax to RV's.

[jlabr2]

lbligh wrote:
I believe that you will find that you never "declared" any weight information in the registration process. Normally, all registrations use GVW information. Normally "declared" weight information is used for weight fees only when vehicles want to avoid weight fees knowing that they will always operate under the GVW of the vehicle.

Yes, I did not declare any weight because my coach is not commercial. However, when I registered my work truck when I trucked for the local Cat dealer, I had to declare a weight which was printed on my registration. To me this is the main difference on how this tax pertains to different vehicles.

[msmith1199]

winepress wrote:

Rollnhome wrote:
Arizona DOT definition of Recreational Vehicle taken from:

Arizona Revised Statutes - Title 28 Transportation - Section 28-3102

"Recreational vehicle" means a motor
vehicle or vehicle combination that is more than twenty-six thousand pounds gross vehicle weight rating and that is designed and exclusively used for private pleasure, including vehicles commonly called motor homes, pickup trucks with campers, travel trailers, boat trailers and horse trailers used exclusively to transport personal possessions or persons for noncommercial purposes.

Here is the list of "use vehicles"

A "use class motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that uses use fuel on a highway in this state and that is a road tractor, truck tractor, truck or passenger carrying vehicle having a declared gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds or having more than two axles.

A passenger carrying vehicle is defined by USDOT as: simplified... A bus or motorcoach ( tour bus) designed to carry 15 or more passengers.

RVs are not on the list therefore no need to exempt.
The listed exemptions are exemptions to vehicle types listed as "use class motor vehicle.

Therefore RVs pay 18¢ fuel tax.

Seems like this discussion is over if the definition of a "passenger carrying vehicle" is correct as stated above.

That is correct. A RV does not fit into any of the other three categories of vehicle. "Passenger Carrying Vehicle" is the only possible definition they could be putting them under, and in my opinion it doesn't apply either.

Edit: After reading this one more time, I notice that in the definition of Recreational Vehicle they specifically say that has a GVWR of over 26,000 pounds. (But they also list travel trailers and pickups with campers and other things that are never going to be 26,000 pounds?) In any event, since RV does have a specific definition listed in AZ law, I think it could easily be argued that since RV is defined, if the tax was intended for RV's then RV would have been specifically listed in the statute. The very fact that RV isn't listed, even though it has a legal description, tells me the use tax wasn't intended for RV's at all.

[msmith1199]

jlabr2 wrote:
Let me ask this. On the pump sticker it says the "Declared Weight". I looked at the definition and it says that this is the weight that is posted on your registration when you licence the vehicle. Even though my coach's GVW is over 26k my registration declared weight is zero. Does this mean anything?

According to some information I found on an old thread, somebody was told by an AZ official that motorhomes registered in AZ were exempt if the declared was listed at 0 since apparently that's what most are. However, that still raised the old problem of every time people post what they were told my AZ officials, they are getting different answers.

"Declared Vehicle Weight" is a term that is used in the commercial trucking industry. In California the statute specifically says Declared Weight only applies to commercial vehicles used for hire. In AZ the stature apparently says if your vehicle doesn't have a Declared Weight then the GVWR is what applies. So according to the one source on here since AZ does give you a declared weight of 0 on motorhomes, then the tax doesn't apply. But take that for what's worth. My California registration for my motorhome doesn't have a weight of any type listed on it.

[Trumpet_Player]

jlabr2 wrote:
Let me ask this. On the pump sticker it says the "Declared Weight". I looked at the definition and it says that this is the weight that is posted on your registration when you licence the vehicle. Even though my coach's GVW is over 26k my registration declared weight is zero. Does this mean anything?

I believe that you will find that you never "declared" any weight information in the registration process. Normally, all registrations use GVW information. Normally "declared" weight information is used for weight fees only when vehicles want to avoid weight fees knowing that they will always operate under the GVW of the vehicle.