Wireless Provider Gripe

[mr__ed]

I received a notification from T-Mobile that in order to receive my discount for auto pay I would need to give them either my debit card or banking account number in order to continue getting the discount.

I will never give any business my debit card or banking info!. The discount is only a paltry $5/month. I understand why they're doing this; they save the fee that it costs them for using a credit card.

I kick myself for leaving Verizon,which I used for years. I was having a minor problem with them which I could easily have lived with. Anyhow, at least I have no problem with the T-Mobile product. I just don't like how some of theses businesses engage in business.

Rant over!:M

[NamMedevac_70]

I am required to make an online monthly payment by either credit card or direct bank draw from my bank account that is much less expensive than using the CC with a "convenience charge of $52.00 each month. So I have a separate bank checking account with limited funds in it for the monthly draw. Therefore, I am limited to a small amount of loss if the merchant or someone else decides to steal from my bank account. Cheers from the casino.

[DougA]

Lantley wrote:

DougA wrote:

Lantley wrote:
Granted it limits your exposure. but sooner or later the credit card needs to be paid. You either pay with a check or direct transfer on line.
There is no free lunch. You end up giving access to your bank account.

Actually. No. For multiple reasons.

First, paying with a credit card insulates your bank account and its data from fraud because you are not giving anyone your critical bank account data.

Secondly, NOBODY but your own bank has access to your individual bank account data when it pays your credit card. The bank that holds your bank account is the paying bank. It makes a bulk transaction to the credit card issuing bank each day, not just for you, but for you and many others. Your account at the credit card issuing bank is credited from the bulk transaction account at your paying bank, which is debited and credited from your individual bank account. In fact the debit from your account occurs as the bulk transaction account is credited. The credit card holding bank is usually paid within 24 hours of the deduction from your account. Your bank account data never leaves the bank you hold your account in. This is especially true if your bank and credit card issuer are one and the same.

In my case I pay the credit card bill each month with one transfer from my Navy Federal Credit Union checking to my Navy Federal Visa. All outside transactions are securely handled by the credit card and are better protected legally than would be my bank account and main assets. Using the credit card effectively firewalls my bank account from anyone.

That's kind of the fallacy if you have an account and transfer money electronically there will always be a risk. Using terms like firewall may make you feel better but the risk exist.
The FDIC has been around long before all the digital transactions we currently make. Bank fraud/theft is not a new phenomenon. None of it is foolproof.

Look, this is my last post on this subject, and I will explain why.

There is no foolproof payment system. None. Nada. However, the entire financial industry, the banks and their regulators, consumer protection organizations, all etc, etc, agree that using a credit card (instead of a debit card or giving someone your bank account data in any form) is far, far, far less risky for the consumer than using a debit card or giving someone your bank account data thru either electronic transfer or handing them a personal check.

This is something I know and care about. I worked in financial risk management for a very large organization for 30+ years. I retired as Director for Strategic Planning and Risk Management. When I started 40 years ago all procurements were done with paper using purchase orders, checks, invoices, petty cash and cashboxes etc. Fraud prevention was expensive and difficult. As we moved to electronic checks for large purchases and debit cards for small purchases, fraud and improper payments declined, but getting vendors paid with debit cards to make refunds for defective goods and improper payments took months of follow-up staff work. When we moved to credit cards for small procurements under $25,000 the dispute process changed. When one of our card holders disputed a charge, the refund came within 24 hours and the burden of proof shifted from card holder to the supplier.

For me, debit cards should be used only by:
1. those who can't get credit,
2. when your credit card won't work, AND
3. when the vendor refuses to take cash.
That is how risky I consider them.

[Lantley]

DougA wrote:

Lantley wrote:
Granted it limits your exposure. but sooner or later the credit card needs to be paid. You either pay with a check or direct transfer on line.
There is no free lunch. You end up giving access to your bank account.

Actually. No. For multiple reasons.

First, paying with a credit card insulates your bank account and its data from fraud because you are not giving anyone your critical bank account data.

Secondly, NOBODY but your own bank has access to your individual bank account data when it pays your credit card. The bank that holds your bank account is the paying bank. It makes a bulk transaction to the credit card issuing bank each day, not just for you, but for you and many others. Your account at the credit card issuing bank is credited from the bulk transaction account at your paying bank, which is debited and credited from your individual bank account. In fact the debit from your account occurs as the bulk transaction account is credited. The credit card holding bank is usually paid within 24 hours of the deduction from your account. Your bank account data never leaves the bank you hold your account in. This is especially true if your bank and credit card issuer are one and the same.

In my case I pay the credit card bill each month with one transfer from my Navy Federal Credit Union checking to my Navy Federal Visa. All outside transactions are securely handled by the credit card and are better protected legally than would be my bank account and main assets. Using the credit card effectively firewalls my bank account from anyone.

That's kind of the fallacy if you have an account and transfer money electronically there will always be a risk. Using terms like firewall may make you feel better but the risk exist.
The FDIC has been around long before all the digital transactions we currently make. Bank fraud/theft is not a new phenomenon. None of it is foolproof.

[DougA]

Lantley wrote:
Granted it limits your exposure. but sooner or later the credit card needs to be paid. You either pay with a check or direct transfer on line.
There is no free lunch. You end up giving access to your bank account.

Actually. No. For multiple reasons.

First, paying with a credit card insulates your bank account and its data from fraud because you are not giving anyone your critical bank account data.

Secondly, NOBODY but your own bank has access to your individual bank account data when it pays your credit card. The bank that holds your bank account is the paying bank. It makes a bulk transaction to the credit card issuing bank each day, not just for you, but for you and many others. Your account at the credit card issuing bank is credited from the bulk transaction account at your paying bank, which is debited and credited from your individual bank account. In fact the debit from your account occurs as the bulk transaction account is credited. The credit card holding bank is usually paid within 24 hours of the deduction from your account. Your bank account data never leaves the bank you hold your account in. This is especially true if your bank and credit card issuer are one and the same.

In my case I pay the credit card bill each month with one transfer from my Navy Federal Credit Union checking to my Navy Federal Visa. All outside transactions are securely handled by the credit card and are better protected legally than would be my bank account and main assets. Using the credit card effectively firewalls my bank account from anyone.

[DougA]

I would never give TMobile my bank account or debit card information. They've had data breaches that have disclosed customer account data, including payment data, out into the wild. From: https://tmo.report/2023/06/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-upcoming-t-mobile-autopay-changes/ :

Clearly this isn’t a very popular idea among T-Mobile customers. On Reddit, users have complained about the upcoming changes, with many saying “I will never give this company access to my bank information”. Others say they will leave T-Mobile all together once the changes are made.

Customers are right to be worried. Just this week T-Mobile had their 2nd data breach of 2023. It affected just over 800 customers, while their previous data breach in January affected around 37 million. Overall, there’s been at least 8 data breaches since 2018."

I am sure that the only reason T-Mobile is doing this is because they got stuck with paying the whole bill for customers who paid with a credit card, while debit card holders can be held responsible for up to $50 of of a fraudulent transaction. This is a really bad deal for T-Mobile customers, who should RUN, not walk out on this company.

[Lantley]

Granted it limits your exposure. but sooner or later the credit card needs to be paid. You either pay with a check or direct transfer on line.
There is no free lunch. You end up giving access to your bank account.

[DougA]

We have Spectrum fiber optic cable for home. The fiber optic cable service is relatively new to our area. We get a legit 500 MBPS unlimited data. Before Spectrum all that was available was DSL from Verizon or a Wireless Internet Service provided by Clarity Connect.We use use a Spectrum Roku app for streaming TV (instead of a cable box). We have no landline. We use Spectrum mobile for our 4 cells (includes hotspots), and a Wineguard Connect2 WiFi hotspot (and Winegard data service) in our travel trailer.

Spectrum mobile is pretty reasonable. Unlimited data for $25.00 per month per line plus fees and taxes, totals out to about $120. Spectrum mobile runs on the Verizon network.

The 500 MBPS Spectrum home internet service includes a larded up TV streaming package for $160 per month.

The Winegard data service for the Connect2 device is not cheap, but it is fast and more reliable than any cell phone or other cellular based hotspot I've used/had in very remote areas. It is high powered, mounted on the roof and can use remote area Wireless Internet Service Providers (aka WISPs), as we found the Navaho Nation. For example we got great service in Chaco Culture National Historical Park and at Joshua Tree NP when nobody else got anything. Winegard's $60 a month plan buys 30 days of service with a 10 MB cap, $100 a month ups the cap to 20 MB. The Winegard data service is prepaid, and I turn it off for months at a time when we are not using the travel trailer in remote locations. Winegard data runs on AT&T and roams on other networks too. . Generally the Winegard Connect2 finds service where our cell phones won't, and our cell phones can use the Winegard for making and receiving phone calls over the Winegard system.

I pay for all three services with my Visa credit card.

[DougA]

Yes, but, and its a BIG BUT, Federal and state consumer credit protection laws apply for credit cards and NOT for debit and bank account electronic transactions. The law is much stricter for credit cards than debit cards and other e-transactions.

See https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050214/credit-vs-debit-cards-which-better.asp

For credit cards, as long as the customer reports the loss or theft in a timely manner, their maximum liability for purchases made after the card disappeared is $50.

For debit cards The Electronic Fund Transfer Act gives debit card customers the same protection from loss or theft—but only if the customer reports it within 48 hours of discovery. After 48 hours, the card user’s liability rises to $500; after 60 days, there is no limit.

In most cases, credit cards offer much greater fraud protection than debit cards.

Other Credit Card Advantages
The Fair Credit Billing Act allows credit card users to dispute unauthorized purchases or purchases of goods that are damaged or lost during shipping. If the item was bought with a debit card, then the charge cannot be reversed unless the merchant is willing to do so. What’s more, debit card theft victims do not get their refund until an investigation has been completed.

The credit cardholder, on the other hand, is not responsible for the disputed charges; the amount is usually deducted immediately and restored only if the dispute is withdrawn or settled in the merchant’s favor. Though some credit and debit card providers offer zero liability protection to their customers, the law is much more forgiving for credit cardholders.

And from personal experience, its a whole lot less of a hassle to fix what happens when your credit card is hacked, than when your bank account is.

[DougA]

Lantley wrote:

magicbus wrote:

Lantley wrote:
I thinks it sort of naïve to think you can somehow shield your info by not using a debit card. How do you pay the credit card that T mobile now uses? With a check?
When you write a check you put all your info out there. Are you fearful of writing a check? In the end its no different in terms of others having access to your info.

I pay with an e-payment via online banking. Regarding checks, go read up on check washing. There really is no reason to use paper checks anymore. And, if your debit card is compromised your bank account gets emptied. With a CC you just reject the charge.

No reason whatsoever to have a debit card.

Dave

But E-pay still puts your info out there which is my point.
Either you trust the electronic banking world or you don't. There is really no escaping it unless you pay all bills and all matters with cash. THere is only one banking system it's all tied together.
Sooner or later you have to pay the bill. Unless you pay in cash you participate in some form of the system.
If T-Mobile is offering you $60.00 in savings a year why not take it?
They would rather give you a discount vs. paying credit card fees to the bank.
No matter how you slice it at some point you are exposing your banking info, which will always have an inherent risk. Fraud, identity theft and deception are not a new phenomenon's. They have been around long before electronic banking and debit cards.

The difference is that the consequences from a credit card number disclosure are far less than those of a debit card / bank account
disclosure. The most obvious of which is that a fraudster can empty your bank account using your debit card or your bank account number. This means other transactions will bounce which will cost you in bounced transaction fees (like a bounced check). Legally there are more protections for you when you use a credit card. Merchants and vendors don't like paying the credit card transaction fee, which is why they may offer you the discount if you give them your bank account number. Don't take them up on the discount. Its not worth the hassle of having your bank account emptied. In my case, while my bank "forgave" all their bounced transaction fees, others didn't, and I was charged over $100.00 because our property tax payment bounced. So I know from personal experience, don't give anybody your debit or bank account numbers, pay with cash or a credit card. Its far easier to contest transactions and limit your liability with a credit card. I do all electronic transactions with my credit card.

[MrWizard]

I have the t-mobile home internet gateway, first version mfg by Nokia , it has given me no trouble, i autopsy my bill via my debit card, there have been no hicuos, no data breaches I'm aware of and no unauthorized charges , as for sim card problems the numbers should be readable from your browser logging in too web interface thru wifi, unless the SIM card is total failure,
You could have just ask them yo replace the gateway, i have been very happy with mine, but not everybody has the same experiences,

[LouLawrence]

When I first tried T Mobile hotspot I was not happy. Bought it online and had to return it by UPS. They send the mailing Label which I took to the UPS store. 3 days later I had confirmation that return was received and a few days later confirmation of 100 percent refund. The new Home Internet router is working out much better.

[mr__ed]

NamMedevac 70: sorry to hear of your problems with T-Mobile's customer service. Even though I had gripes about their business practices, I did find their customer service to be friendly and helpful. I still wish I kept my original Verizon service which I had for years, and paid less per month, although the T-Mobile service is pretty good, admittedly.

[NamMedevac_70]

I just today returned my T-Mobile home internet Gateway FAST modem/router and cancelled my service after two days of connected but no internet and online activation people unable to activate the device due to a stuck SIM Card (unable to remove it) that they said needed for the numbers.

Also many hours yesterday dealing with useless tech support over ERROR CODE WANN002 that they cannot solve for a great many customers for over two years. Of course also tried all the phone and online trouble shooting methods but no joy.

Online cancel operators refused to cancel my service but kept sending me to tech support then activation unit then back to cancel. Finally they sent me a return label by email. Total waste of time for many hours. Spectrum internet is pricy but reliable at moderate speeds for my purpose now for many years.

Also still have the great AT&T Mobley car modem for my many out of state fishing trips and ATT Cell phone service. Still good to go. Rollin, Rollin, Rollin.

[mr__ed]

WNYBob wrote:
T-Mobile has a bank card account called T-Mobile Money.
I use that card number for autopay. By the way they pay 4% on the first $3,000 on deposit.

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.