RV Fuel Issues & Prices - Post 'Em Here!

[Dick_A]

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[LindsayRichards]

Paw Paw is a small town in Southern MI. Big grape and cherry growing area. I guess the fire truck was from there. Your post are very informative.

[Paw_Paw_Festus]

I've been reading about the polar bears. I must say, it is cool that we have them. I would hope to keep a good population of them forever. But in all honesty, they are not the reason we don't drill, they are only the excuse.
That is, if polar bears never existed in the first place, the policy would be the same. It would just be to protect snow weasels or some other neat looking cute critter that drinks coke from a bottle.
It ain't so much pro bear, as it is anti oil.

Good article. Thanks for the link

[Paw_Paw_Festus]

LindsayRichards wrote:
Great post Paw Paw (Is that Paw Paw MI. I used to work in Lawton, MI).

Up until last year, I was an Industrial Fire Captain at the complex where I work. One of my firefighters found a calendar of Fire trucks. One of the months had a Fire Truck on it with "Paw Paw Fire Dept" on the door. I believe that town was in MI.
I still have that picture. Some day I'll frame it and put it in my office.

[Paw_Paw_Festus]

Disclaimer: My previous post was not written to demonize Big Oil. I'm just advancing the notion that they, like any other business in the world takes advantage of every situation.
I'm not much of a conspiracy guy.
I like Big Oil. Big oil lays our more payroll and benefits than any other industry. More people work for Big Oil than any other industry, here and abroad. Big oil contributes more money to economies both local and worldwide than any other industry. More schools, hospitals and other public good programs are funded with oil profits than any other industry.
Oil has been the biggest sector of both the US and Canadian economies for decades. I can't imagine a North America without Big Oil.

[Paw_Paw_Festus]

Fezziwig wrote:
"That is not the reason we don't drill for our own oil. The real reason is environmental pressure - pure and simple. "

I didn't know that the Environmentalists had more money than the oil companies. It must be so because we all know that congress-critters are For sale to the highest bidder.

The environmental movement doesn't need more money than Big Oil.
Its the environemntal movement that's putting Big Dollars in Big Oil's pockets. Why would Big Oil even WANT to buy a politician when the environmental movement is making them profits beyond tgheir wildest imagination? Its like I said, The high price of oil makes for strange bedfellows.
Trust me Fezz, I work for Big oil. Big Oil LOVES the environmental movement. Big oil CATORS to the envirnmental movement. We spend more money on environmental programs than any other industry in the world.

Its that movement that keeps reserves like ANWR, Rocky shale, Pacific and Atlantic off shore completely off the table -- and keeps deepwater GoM in a tessy. All of which forces us to the mercy of OPEC, which in turn plays into the hands of Big Oil.
The environmental movement creates the perfect business environment for big oil. It suppresses the supply, it creates the illusion that we are at "Peak Oil" -- giving oil companies FREE propaganda to say, "Theres only so much of it left. We DESERVE tons of money for it, cuz its getting so scarce."
Oil companies don't need lobbiest's. You already believe everything they want you to believe.
I'm telling you, the environemntal movement is the best money making tool that Big Oil has.

Can you imagine owning a world wide (super large) coffee company?
The demand for coffee is growing by leaps and bounds with no end in site. What were once 3rd world countries, drinking dirty water from a river, are now developing, and becoming more and more addicted to coffee every day --- further increasing the demand for your product. Now, Not only do you have this massive movement to stop the planting of new coffee bean farms because some endangered worm may suffer the wrath of a plow disc, theres also this notion that the dirt where coffee is already being grown is losing its potential to grow beans cuz its getting old and worn out. I know, dirt don't wear out, but humor me a little. The notion is, coffee production has peaked...
Has this movement done something TO you? or FOR you?
Wouldn't it be in YOUR best interest to let the world believe this?? Wouldn't it be in YOUR best interst to foster and nurture this way of thinking?
Wouldn't it be in YOUR best interest to funnel some of your profits to the anti-coffee / pro-worm groups that are keeping the world dependant on YOUR coffee?

Of course, you would go on talk shows and whine about how bad you need to plant new coffee fields to increase your production, yadda, yadda, yadda -- but when you got back to your office, closed the door behind you, plopped down into your big fat leather chair with a big fat glass of 100 year old cognac and put fire to your big fat cuban cigar --- a smile would come across your face as you muttered ,, "Suck errs"

Trust me, Big oil doesn't care if we EVER drill for new oil here in the US. They have a birds nest on the ground right now. The environmrntal movement is making them BILLIONS of dollars every day. Why would they spend that money buying politicans to screw that up?

The vast majority of this country already believes what they want us to believe.
If we drill here at home, it would benefit US, the consumer,, not big oil.

[Bumpyroad]

Fezziwig wrote:

Because, although you may not think so, foreign oil is cheap right now. the long-term secular trend in oil prices is up: our oil will be worth much more in 20 years than it is now. It's better than money in the bank.

yep, our oil companies can sit on their leases, bring in foreign oil at $70 a BBL, and in 20 years their leases will have $200 a bbl oil in them.

bumpy

[LindsayRichards]

Once again, if we are allowed to develop our shale oil reserves which includes more oil than mankind has used todate, the price of oil will become the price of shale oil which will be a lots lower than today's prices. We are stupid to allow the tree huggers to control our nations oil decisions. Paying foreigners for oil when we have huge reserves is just plain dumb. Even the most ardent leftwing tree huggers don’t make the silly argument that it is like having money in the bank. Other forms of energy will be taking it place in the next 50 years and we will have been spending huge sums ($700 billion) on something we didn’t need. The real reason you guys don’t want to drill our own resources is the polar bears and the hoax of manmade global warming. The RV’ers are the ones taking it the worst with our high fuel consumption.

[Fezziwig]

"We are buying over 60 % of our foreign oil from overseas when we have huge supplies of oil, natural gas, shale oil, and coal in the USA. Now why is this a good ideal?"

Because, although you may not think so, foreign oil is cheap right now. the long-term secular trend in oil prices is up: our oil will be worth much more in 20 years than it is now. It's better than money in the bank.

If the oil situation gets worse with time, as the chinese and others escalate their demand, our underground oil increases in value. Any oil leases we let under current international trade agreements will result in 2/3 of the pumped oil from US resources going to other coutries. But if we hoard the oil until later we will be able to change the terms of sales then to secure a higher percentage for ourselves.

Letting leases now will shortchange us for the future when prices will be higher. It is penny-wise and pound foolish.

[Fezziwig]

"That is not the reason we don't drill for our own oil. The real reason is environmental pressure - pure and simple. "

I didn't know that the Environmentalists had more money than the oil companies. It must be so because we all know that congress-critters are For sale to the highest bidder.

[LindsayRichards]

Great post Paw Paw (Is that Paw Paw MI. I used to work in Lawton, MI). Interesting article linked below that describes the closing off of the greatly anticipated Chikcki Sea oil fields that expected to be bigger than existing Alaskan oil fields. This is all in the name of saving the polar bear which is doing very well.

http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2009/10/obama-sets-aside-200000-miles-for-thriving-polar-bear-populations/

[Paw_Paw_Festus]

Fezz, I've worked in the energy sector all my life. I got 20 years with a major oil company. Ten years of independent oil service before that. I've worked in Saudi Arabia. When it comes to oil, I've been there and done that for over thirty years.
I'm sorry my friend, but you are wrong. Please bear with me. Please don't take any of it personal, we'll lose the thread if we fall into that trap.

Fezziwig wrote:


The easiest answer is that the value of our resources goes up as other peoples resources are exhausted. So we should use up cheap oil from the middle east while holding ours in reserve for the future when demand is higher (and it seems demand increases every year as more countries demand a modern high-consumption economy) and the value of that underground oil increases. With world-wide known oil reserves peaking out it's better than money in the bank.

That's the policy we've pursued for 60 years and it's worked out well for us.

That is not the reason we don't drill for our own oil. The real reason is environmental pressure - pure and simple. We haven't built a new refinery in over 30 years for the same reason.
I will agree that the oil companies love this. it keeps the price higher than it otherwise would be or SHOULD be. And what oil company wouldn't like that? The envirnomental movement and Big oil make for strange bedfellows. They both LOVE high oil prices. The dirty little secret is this: The envirnonmental movement is a friend of Big Oil. Without the environmental movement, BIG OIL would be drilling BIG TIME. As it is, all they have to do is load a ship, drive it to a refinery, hook up a hose, unload, go get another one. Its easy, ne mess, no risk, no dry holes, no environmental fines, no hassle.
Its easy and it pays GOLD! Exxon Mobile made what last year, 54 BILLION? Why would they WANT to put up a fight with the environmental movement. They'd NEVER make that kind of $$ in a true free market.

It's just a savvy business decision. Yea, without a doubt.

By contrast, if you are a counter-party (an adversary) what you would like is for the USA to sell oil leases on ANWR and OCS at todays cheap prices. then, in 20 years when they are ready to come online, the prices will be much higher and you can sell it to higher bidders, like China, at the expense of the USA. So if you are a Harvard-trained Saudi MBA (and there are whole armies of those guys) with all the resources provided by all the money the USA has paid to Saudis for the past 50 years you lay a plan to get the USA to sign over cheap oil leases now.

If you don't mind me saying so, Thats kinda far out. Like I said, I've worked in Saudi Arabia. They ain't that smart. And I gotta tell ya, the idea that Saudi Arabia is a RICH Country, is a false assumption. Check this out. Saudi Arabia pumps about 11 million barrels a day export. At today's price say 80 bucks (and thats for WTI, not Middle eastern crude, but I've giving all I can) thats 880 Million dollars a day. Now thats a lot of money, but it also represents the BULK of the Saudi Economy. My friend, collectively we Americans spend more than that at Walmart every day. Mr. Bush spent 10 times more money in ONE DAY on TARP. Thats how much BIGGER our economy is than their's. The funny thing is this, if you want to break OPEC? Drill baby drill. We drill? They freak out! The last thing Opec wants us doing -- is drilling our own oil.

One form that Saudi plan could take (say, I were a Saudi MBA) would be to start a propaganda campaign in the USA to get citizens to pressure the government into selling oil leases right now. For example, I might start a US corporation with a nice all-american name like, say "American Solutions", and I would put an American flag on the web page, and I'd hire a prominent American politician, like, say, Newt Gingrich to front it. A PR firm would think up a catchy slogan, say, "Drill baby drill".

If I were such a devious Saudi MBA I would hold out as a carrot that letting leases now would solve todays USA gas problems, though I know that the oil won't come online for 20 years and then 2/3 or more will be sold to foreigners at high prices while being pumped out of USA oil reserves at old 2009 cheap prices.

Again, the last thing the Saudis want us doing is drill domestic oil. I was there when Drill baby drill was the mantra of some. I was there when oil was $146.00 a barrel. I wa there when the priceof oil fell through its rear end. They were walking 6 inches off the ground when oil was UP. I told some Sauid friends of mine, in a crowded lunch room "Don't set NEXT year's budget based on THIS year's oil price. Yer gonna be crying in a couple months when it falls to the cellar."
*Finger pointing up* "Oh no my freind. Thee perdice of oil has taken its rightfull place in the thee mardket. We'd are finally getting the money our labor deserves" or something like that. Anyway, a month later, I'm standing there saying "Told ya so" while they run around in sandle clad feet pulling their hair out - fretting "It is only for short time, inshalla.
No sir, if the Saudis are paying for any kind of propaganda, its Anti Palin propaganda.

But then, our loyal royal allies in Saudi Arabia wouldn't do that would they?
They really don't think that far into the future. If they did, they wouldn't have such a welfare state now.

They wouldn't be that mean and selfish would they?
They wouldn't be that calculating would they?

The country is full of radicals. But the country itself ain't any more selfish than we are. They want all they can get, so do we.
We could take a few lesson on meaness from the Saudis. They don't have a drug problem. They cut the heads off of dealers.


After all, they love us! Pay no attention to the fact that 15 of 19 bombers on 9/11/2002 were Saudis. Oh, and ignore that Osama Bin Ladin is a Saudi.

Most of them HATE Bin Laden. They would burn him alive if he showed up in Saudi Arabia.
I went over there for one reason. MONEY! I went over there fully prepared to hate them. I went over there fully expecting THEM to hate ME. Wasn't so, the vast majority of them DO love us, we're their biggest customer. The every day simple simon saudi working man is as simple as they come. He just wants to feed his family. Its the small LOUD minority that you see on the news. Its the 15 of the 19 that you see and hear about. I'm all for profiling. All the terrorists were young muslums. Profiling and generalizing are two different things.
We have skin heads, the KKK, and a few more radical hate groups. All countrys have their radicals. Does that make us all racists? Certainly not.

Fezz: Like I said, please don't take anything I say personal. I like an honest debate with respect shown to all parties. I certainly respect your opinion. I just think your wrong. Have a safe and prosperous day my friend.

[LindsayRichards]

You have been reading way too many conspiracy websites. We are buying over 60 % of our foreign oil from overseas when we have huge supplies of oil, natural gas, shale oil, and coal in the USA. Now why is this a good ideal? If we were allowed to develop shale oil (now at about $75/ bbl to recover) that would drastically increase supply (over 2 billion bbls available) and make all other oil priced at or below it. Now it is on a congressional mandate that no research can be done.

[Fezziwig]

"I would like some one to tell me why leaving our natural resources unrecouped and purchasing them and the associated jobs they produce, helps our country and our people."

The easiest answer is that the value of our resources goes up as other peoples resources are exhausted. So we should use up cheap oil from the middle east while holding ours in reserve for the future when demand is higher (and it seems demand increases every year as more countries demand a modern high-consumption economy) and the value of that underground oil increases. With world-wide known oil reserves peaking out it's better than money in the bank.

That's the policy we've pursued for 60 years and it's worked out well for us.

It's just a savvy business decision.

By contrast, if you are a counter-party (an adversary) what you would like is for the USA to sell oil leases on ANWR and OCS at todays cheap prices. then, in 20 years when they are ready to come online, the prices will be much higher and you can sell it to higher bidders, like China, at the expense of the USA. So if you are a Harvard-trained Saudi MBA (and there are whole armies of those guys) with all the resources provided by all the money the USA has paid to Saudis for the past 50 years you lay a plan to get the USA to sign over cheap oil leases now.

One form that Saudi plan could take (say, I were a Saudi MBA) would be to start a propaganda campaign in the USA to get citizens to pressure the government into selling oil leases right now. For example, I might start a US corporation with a nice all-american name like, say "American Solutions", and I would put an American flag on the web page, and I'd hire a prominent American politician, like, say, Newt Gingrich to front it. A PR firm would think up a catchy slogan, say, "Drill baby drill".

If I were such a devious Saudi MBA I would hold out as a carrot that letting leases now would solve todays USA gas problems, though I know that the oil won't come online for 20 years and then 2/3 or more will be sold to foreigners at high prices while being pumped out of USA oil reserves at old 2009 cheap prices.

But then, our loyal royal allies in Saudi Arabia wouldn't do that would they?

They wouldn't be that mean and selfish would they?

They wouldn't be that calculating would they?

After all, they love us! Pay no attention to the fact that 15 of 19 bombers on 9/11/2001 were Saudis. Oh, and ignore that Osama Bin Ladin is a Saudi.

[Paw_Paw_Festus]

Fezziwig wrote:
Supply and demand?

Most people have a grossly oversimplified notion of "supply and demand".

And some people have no notion of it at all. At the end of the day, almost anything can be manipulated and semi controlled. But its sorta like the old "Fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time" type of thing. Over time, the market will dictate.
The US gov has always held a monopoly on the Postal Service. Thats why people use email...

Fezzowig wrote:
It's a terrible thing when actual fact interferes with a guys ideology.

Or visa versa.
This is a very interesting thread. I would love ot see it continue. I'm trying very hard to leave politics out of my comments. I would ask everyone to do the same, so we can keep this thread whole and unlocked.

[LindsayRichards]

Most people have a grossly oversimplified notion of "supply and demand".

A few people have the inability to realize that allowing politics to foul up simple natural laws that have been in operation for generations can easily happen. I would like some one to tell me why leaving our natural resources unrecouped and purchasing them and the associated jobs they produce, helps our country and our people. Please remember that most of the RV’ers reading the answer will be laymen, so keep it simple for us. Today for example, 200,000 sq miles of some of the best oil prospecting land in Alaska was put on hold for the polar bear (which has increased in number 5 fold in the last 50 years). At some point, we have to start thinking logically.