3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[RadioNeal]

Hi All,

I pulled the cover off my ELM3000 a little while ago, and it is most definitely brushless. There are two rectifier diodes clearly visible on the armature.

Manufacturers always put a disclaimer on their manuals that says something to the effect "We reserve the right to make changes and improvements without notice." Read that as "If we run out of something, or if we screwed up, we can change whatever we want and... and... Tough on you! You're stuck with it!"

Cheers!

--Neal

[LittleBill]

people have allready said that they are quieter then some built in generators on rv's so that should tell you enough

[Bigdog]

Boy, has this ever been an experience....
Now what I want to know is are they quiet enuff for an afternoon and early evening in an average campground setting for using your micro,A/C and charging the batteries and how much time does enneyone have on theirs to determine reliability. (outside of the guy that burned out the bearings after 12 straight hours and they may even have been American ones too)...
No I don't mean race tracks either,even though my cousin is the stats keeper at Thunder Valley in Penn.

[LittleBill]

eh well i got one screw out, the other actually stoped my electric screw driver, never saw that happen before, so i pulled out a industrial drill, hooked the bit in and actuall bent the metal till it pulled away, im done, i put the other screw in and walked away sorry i can't help ya, although nice if the generator had 12v, i would just bring my 3 stage with me anyway

[LittleBill]

professor i will look at mine did u just take off the red vent cap to find the wires, or the control panel box let me know i will look at mine

[professor95]

Here is a new one that will really confuse the issue on the Chinese generators.

Yesterday, while reading through the forum, I noted a post that referred to the parts manual for the ELM3000 as having brushes.

I said to myself, "No, that is incorrect."

So I went to the ELIM web site to look.

Yep, the parts manual did indeed show a brush assembly. But wait, the specs on the same site said "brushless". Why?

So I think back about six weeks or so - When I bought my ELM3000, I downloaded and printed a parts manual. Fortunately, I put it in my file cabinet where manuals belong. I pulled it out to look at it. There are no brushes on the alternator head in my manual. It is, indeed, of the brushless design.

I then took the back cover off my alternator. There are NO brushes in there. The alternator design matches the parts manual I had previously downloaded - not the one currently on the ELIM web site for the 3000.

So, I went back to the web site and did some more looking. I discovered my generator head matches the one for the ELM3000L, but I do not have the 12 volt DC output on the front of my generator that the "L" does.

Back to the generator for another look. There are two extra wires inside that are crimped off. So, I check them out..... Guess what? They produce 12 volts when the generator is running.

I think to myself, "This is all screwed up....it looks like I have an ELM3000 with the 3000L alternator - but the 12 volt output isn't being used."

I begin to wonder, "was the parts manual on the web site changed?" I believe it was. I could have downloaded the wrong one. But, if I did, why does it match my unit?

I strongly suspect some (early?) ELM3000's may have the 3000L generator head as a substitute for the "regular" 3000 assembly...... or something like that. Who knows, maybe the Chinese factory ran out of one and just substituted another to complete the order.... but then, why did they advertise it as "brushless" if it wasn't suppose to be? Why two different designs? All I can do is speculate. Anyway, what I have doesn't match the "new" parts manual for the ELM3000 currently on ELIM's web site. Does this mean that an ELM3000 with brushes is inferior? Probably not.

I wonder what the other ELM3000's out there have for a generator head?

As far as brushes vs. brushless discussion - I am holding my views firm regardless of what others may have posted. Brushless alternators are very common now. In fact, I would be surprised if any new cars had brush type alternators. Brushless alternators DO NOT require permanent magnet rotors as one person suggested.... unless they were built more than 30 years ago.

Someone also said Honda was still using brushes. The logic seemed to be that if Honda used them, they must be OK. I do not know if this is true or false. I just have to take the writer's word for it right now. Assuming they are correct, I have no idea why Honda still uses brushes. Some one will need to ask Honda. Meanwhile, we can continue to explore ideas and opinions about these little marvels. I enjoy that, it encourages critical thinking - something I believe is waining.

One thing for sure, alternator technology has changed.

As far as the dB debate, I think I am going to just step out of that one. What I wrote was accurate. If someone wa...

[LittleBill]

prolly just bad, i have found that bearings don't seem to get much hotter after 20 minutes with the same kind of load, at least on my trailer anyway, thats a shame i hope my elim doesn't have that problem i only have about 6 hours on mine

[mkmathis]

Well, I took out my Powerwise 3500w for the first time this weekend. I left it in the bed of my truck and it seemed quieter than most Rv's around. I actually fell asleep watching a movie and I woke up to it still running. But it sounded very odd(like a blender with ice in it) so went and turned it off and started checking it out. I found a bearing at the end of the alternator part had seized and exploded causing a horrible sound. I am not sure if this is my fault for running it 12 hours or so straight or if it is just bad.

[engine31]

WOW! Proffessor.. that was a fantastic article and very interesting. Now.. if Pep Boys is doing away with this gen-set where else can one be purchased. Surely someone in the states will sell this unit.

[n7bsn]

toprudder wrote:

Professor95 wrote:
Not quite (good pun!)

One db up is a 26% increase. If zero dB is equal to 1,000 microvolts, an increase to +1 dB is 1,260 microvolts. Another 1 dB increase is 26% of 1,260 is 328. Add that to 1,260 and we have 1,580 microvolts. Multiply that by 26% and we get 410. Add that to 1,580 and the sum is 1,990 (rounded to 2,000 microvolts). 2,000 microvolts is DOUBLE 1,000 microvolts. Thus, an increase of +3dB is in fact double.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about decibels. Let me say up front that I am not an expert on sound or how it is measured, but I DO know that doubling the distance is equivalent to a 6dB drop in the measured sound level. This is why I hate to see someone say "this generator is rated at xxx dB sound level" and don't make reference to the measurement distance.

.

Thanks for posting that, you are right, voltage (and current) are 6dB for doubling, (20log), as is distance. While sound, like power, is 3dB for doubling (10log).

For people that don't understand why, consider the formuala's for power (watts).. Volts*Amp, Amps-Squared*Ohms, Volts-Squared/Ohms. Note the squaring... that's why power/energy is a 10log function and voltage/current/distance (see below) are a 10log function.

Using the doubling of distance being 6dB (20log) for sound drop off assumes that the spreading is spherical, ie with no boundary conditions, ie like the ground. Since the ground is there (unless the measurement is done really high up), the 6dB per doubling the distance isn't exact. We really can't used the cylindrical spreading formula either (10log), since there is no upper boundry. There is an ad-hock formula sometimes used in sonar for similar conditions, with is 15log.

See http://www.dosits.org/science/adv/cvss1.htm

Ya, I work in sonar

[toprudder]

Professor95 wrote:
Not quite (good pun!)

One db up is a 26% increase. If zero dB is equal to 1,000 microvolts, an increase to +1 dB is 1,260 microvolts. Another 1 dB increase is 26% of 1,260 is 328. Add that to 1,260 and we have 1,580 microvolts. Multiply that by 26% and we get 410. Add that to 1,580 and the sum is 1,990 (rounded to 2,000 microvolts). 2,000 microvolts is DOUBLE 1,000 microvolts. Thus, an increase of +3dB is in fact double.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about decibels. Let me say up front that I am not an expert on sound or how it is measured, but I DO know that doubling the distance is equivalent to a 6dB drop in the measured sound level. This is why I hate to see someone say "this generator is rated at xxx dB sound level" and don't make reference to the measurement distance.

However, I am somewhat of an expert regarding decibels when measuring electrical signal levels. (see my website) I work with a lot of instrumentation with units in dBm (decibels related to one milliwatt) and dBuv (decibels related to one microvolt). Some people have said that 3dB is double, others say that 10dB is double. In terms of electrical signals 3dB is double the power, 6dB is double the voltage. 10dB is 10x the power, 20dB is 10x the voltage. Why the difference between "power" and "voltage"? Power is voltage x current. If voltage goes up double, then the current goes up double as well (assuming a linear load) so power goes up as a squared function of either voltage or current.

FYI, 120 dBuV is equal to 1 volt. 140 dBuV is equal to 10 volts. 30 dBm = 1 watt, 40 dBm = 10 watts.

Electrical field strength also changes 6dB with a doubling of distance, so I think the sound level follows similarly the rules regarding electrical field strength. I suspect 3dB (in terms of sound level) will be double the sound "energy" while 6dB will be double the signal measured with a linear measurement device. How does this relate to the human ear?? I have no clue!!! 🙂

Not that any of this is important for selecting a generator!!! I just wanted to correct an error that I saw. I appreciate very much all of the great information provided by Professor95 and everyone else in this thread.

[RadioNeal]

I had a chance to put the ELM3000 through it's paces today. Here's what I found:

I was working with the unit in 110v mode.
I placed the unit under a load made up of a load consisting of the following: A room air conditioner 7,500BTU, a 1/3hp bench grinder, an electric heater, a 100 Watt incandescent lamp, and an electric fan.
I added these items to the load one at a time, starting with the grinder, 100Watt lamp, then the A/C, heater and finally the fan.

I monitored the line voltage using a Fluke model 77 multimeter, and monitored the current draw with a Sperry inductive ammeter model DSA 7610.

The ELM3000 had no problem handling the various load items. I added load until the voltage dropped to 108.8 Volts. At this point, I measured the current draw at 19.9 Amps.

I consider 108 Volts to be about the minimum I would want to run appliances, and also probably indicative of a conservative safe maximum sustained load for the generator set.

At this load level everything ran well, the voltage fluctuation was no more than half a volt, and the 100 Watt lamp showed no signs of flickering or fluctuation in brightness. (Something I really hate... Makes me think I'm in a third-world country.) There was a noticeable increase in mechanical engine noise at this load, consistent with an engine working at the upper end of it's design power. This last observation being very subjective of course.

Thus, I come up with a figure of 2,165 Watts as a safe load for the generator which should provide for reliable power and a voltage high enough to run most anything that's not overly sensitive.

Please keep in mind that my instruments may not be completely accurate. I have three of the Fluke 77's, and they are within a couple of tenths of one another, so I'm fairly confident in their accuracy. I'm not quite as trusting of inductive ammeters.

I am being quite arbitrary here in saying that 2,150 - 2,200 Watts would be a good, safe continuous load limit for the ELM3000 which would provide long-term reliability for the generator set while assuring that loads were being fed adequate voltage to meet their manufacturer's label requirements.

I would be most interested to see if someone else can load test their ELM3000 and see if the load current and voltage drop are similar.

Cheers!

--Neal

[Guest]

delete another

[Guest]

sigh

[Guest]

not my fault!!LOL