3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

Wyatt-S wrote:
presp- My goal was to come up with the simplest, yet safe way, to rewire this gen so others, who may not be mecahnically inclined, could do it as well. I think this design accomplishes that. Both outlets (depending on how you wire your 4 prong plug)are protected by a single CB rated at 25 amps but actually trips at a sustained 28 amps (the full rated power of this gen set) and breaker two should (have not tested) trip at about 13A sustained. In my testing, CB1 did not trip at a surge load of 32 amps but did trip at a sustained 28A. I think this effectively protects the gen set from overload. The wiring can easily be desined to put the CB's in parallel, but I think that is dangerous since the current would be split and I don't know when they would trip. I would imagine that CB two would still protect the circuits, but I just don't like paralell CB's.

I have NOT seen this CB, so I'm operating on the impression that it is for 13 amps at 120 volts ( aprox 1500 watts )

if a 25 amp breaker is stock and trips at 28 amps sustained then the breaker is safe for the 'REWIRED' units and a fire hazard for stock units since the generator head could get hot and burn the winding before it trips

[Richdel]

Richdel wrote:

Elda wrote:
whs9841,

I bought the ELM-3600-SS Storm Series, which I suspect is virtually the same as the 3500. Anyway, the primary reason I picked it over the ELM-3000 was having wheels and handles to make it easy to move. I invariably end up moving things by myself.

So far it has worked fine. I don't know if that helps you decide anything, but that is my two cents worth.

I have been following this thread for all 90+ pages and almost 1 month, and I am ready to pull the trigger on the ELIM3000. But I am still uncertain if I should go with the ELIM3600SS. I will be using my gen as the primary backup for my house (and sump pump). The ELIM3000 is great since all amps can be redirected to one 120v outlet. My sump is very inefficient (13.5 running amps!!!). Anyway, the ELIM3600 being almost 10lbs lighter, and 2db quieter, with wheels for only a $100 jump has me 2nd guessing the ELIM3000 as my choice.

My only question is can all amps be sent to 1-120v outlet similar to the ELIM3000? If yes, I may purchase an ELIM3600SS tomorrow. If no, then I purchase the ELIM3000 tomorrow.

Also, after reading about all the UPS (shipping) woes, has anyone who has purchased an ELIM3000 from the ebay seller (Jae's) used any other shipping option? Is there any other shipping option available from this seller? Good things or bad things about the seller?

Too many questions. Just can't see good things happening if my UPS guy has to deliver a 100 pount package at my house! Bad things will happen.

Thanks to all for the time you spent putting this thread together and all the testing you have done. I appreciate it greatly!

Does anyone else know if there are differences between ELIM3000 and 3500? Specifically, can the 3500 divert all the running amps to 1 -120 volt outlet? I have an email to the EBAY seller, sent on Friday, but have not received an answer.

Anyone?

[bill2]

allpraisebob wrote:

scottnjenrv wrote:
to Mr Wizzard, Professor95, or other electrical gurus,

I completed the rewire of my Power Pro 3500 today.
...
Now for the not-so-good news. Neither of my protection devices seems to work. I have two. First the mainline CB in the genset...

Leave the BROWN and BLUE wires that come from the generator head connected to the circuit breaker then parallel the RED wire with the BROWN wire at the plug(s) and the BLUE wire with the added on WHITE wire!!!. This is very important, hence the italics - the WHITE wire is bonded to the RED wire inside the wiring harness coming out of the back of the generator head. This connection needs to be broken, and the WHITE wire extended all the way to the front panel so it can be paralleled with the BLUE one.


allpraisebob,

I paralleled the RED and the BROWN at the CB input. I disconnected the WHITE from the RED in the genhead then I ran a new WHITE wire and paralleled it with the BLUE. I did not run the BLUE/WHITE (neutral) side of the circiut through the CB. I only ran the BROWN/RED (hot) side through. I jumpered both CBs to be in parallel.

This is electrically the same. It certainly works. Is it a safe connection?

Bill
(Scott's assistant for this project)

My second protection device is a GFI ... blah, blah, blah. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?

I did NOT notice when I opened the generator head up, but I imagine that the yellow/green wire is simply a chassis ground and therefore not "bonded" to the RED/WHITE "neutral". Connecting the BLUE wire side of the generator windings to the YELLOW/GREEN wire, or the chassis, would then provide the additonal return path for ground fault current just like in your service entrance. GFI's work by detecting an imbalance in current between the HOT and NEUTRAL wires (they don't actually need to be grounded to work, in other words!), but if neutral isn't connected to ground at any point then fault current can not flow between hot and ground either. This is not such a big deal, though, because without a return path to follow, the current from the generator can't shock you anyway! 😉

I DID notice when I opened up the gen head. The YELLOW/GREEN wire is in fact a chassis ground and not connected electrically to either the RED/WHITE neutral in the original wiring or the BLUE/WHITE neutral in my modified wiring. In fact I measured about 60v between the YELLOW/GREEN wire and the BLUE/WHITE neutral in my genset. Are you saying that I should connect the BLUE/WHITE neutral to the YELLOW/GREEN? What would happen to the 60v I was measuring there? Would this be a safer connection than I have now?

thanks, Bill
(Soctt's helper for thie project)

[presp]

presp wrote:
The 15 amp receptacle is ONLY protected by CB2 @28 amps!

CORRECTION:
The above should read "The 15 amp receptacle is ONLY protected by CB1 @28 amps!"

bad, bad fingers 🙂

[bill2]

tvantuyl wrote:

scottnjenrv wrote:
to Mr Wizzard, Professor95, or other electrical gurus,

I completed the rewire ...yadda, yadda yadda (omitted for brevity)

My second protection device is a GFI. This is in line with my power cord. I did a test at my garage where I ran the space heater with the generator and grounded the hot lead to my house water pipe. The GFI did not trip. I also grounded the genset to the water pipe. I checked the voltage between the green wire and the hot lead and found about 60v as expected. When I grounded this 60v point the GFI didn't trip and the voltmeter on the genset didn't budge - 115v solid. Can anyone tell me what's going on here?

I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks again for any help you can offer.

Scott,

Scottnjenrv:

Did you have the genset connected to an earth ground that would be common with the cold water pipe you used as a GFI test? I suspect the fault path the genset would see was incomplete.
If the genset is not grounded to an earth ground, then the GFI cannot see the ground return "fault" that it is designed to protect from.
Let me know if that helps the GFI work correctly to protect the user.
Ted

Ted,

Both the genset and my test set up were grounded to the water pipe. The genset was grounded at the external post where you normally connect the green wire to a rod driven into the ground. ???

[presp]

Wyatt-S wrote:
presp- My goal was to come up with the simplest, yet safe way, to rewire this gen..... I would imagine that CB two would still protect the circuits, but I just don't like paralell CB's.

I think you essentially accomplished "the simplest, yet safe way".

Let me offer one more thought:

Using the nice diagram in your 'profile',
the CBs (circuit breakers) are not labeled so lets;
a. call the 'bump' in the Brown wire CB1 -rated @28 amps,
b. call the 'bump' in the Blue wire CB2 -rated @14 amps.

The 30 amp twist lock is protected, @14 amps or 28 amps,
depending on how you wire the male plug.
That is ok, since all its connectors are rated for 30a.

The 15 amp receptacle is ONLY protected by CB2 @28 amps!
This is a potential overload for that type of receptacle.

Consider rewiring (remove) CB2 from the Blue wire and wire it
in SERIES, after CB1 (brown wire), ONLY to the 'hot' leg
of the 15 amp receptacle.
This will protect the 15 amp receptacle from potential overload.

However, other gensets can be wired differently.
It appears there are quite number of different gensets presented
so far that can/do have different wiring setups & wire colors.
Many do not have good circuit diagrams.
(my Nikota 3500 has NO circuit diagram in the owners manual)

Hope the above makes some sense.
Good luck,
Pres

[wildnfree]

Wyatt-S,
I rewired my Powerpro 3500 according to your schematic and it works even better than it did before. It would run my airconditioner, converter, and either a microwave/coffemaker/1500w heater before but the voltage would drop to close to 108. Since I rewired it the voltage with the air-converter-heater only drops 3-4 volts according to my cheap meter (Fluke is on the boat). The thing I really like about your method is the ease of making the change by just moving two wires on screw connections. Instead of using a bridging wire for the red/brown connection I just moved the red wire that comes from the generator head over to the brown connector screw. I didn't see any reason it wouldn't work that way. Thanks to everyone for the good information on this thread.

[bill2]

NM_Desert_Rat wrote:
scottnjenrv,

I tried to find a data sheet on the Cochirk (sp) breaker without luck. PowerPro told me over the phone that it is a 13A breaker, I'm sure that I have drawn more than that without it tripping.

Out of curiosity, whose wiring mod did you use, MrWizard's or allpraisebob's?

Thanks

Desert

NM_Desert_Rat

I used the alpraisebob model since he thoughtfully included an annotated picture. What do you suggest relative to the mainline CB? I'm sure I was drawing more than 30a.

Bill
(Scott's assistant for this project)

[kilgtfish]

Could you guys who have rewired the generator for full power let me know what voltage you have between neutral and ground with load and no load. I know that usually the neutral and ground lugs are connected together in a house panel, but I am a little dumb regarding generators. Thanks.
Tom

[Wyatt-S]

presp- My goal was to come up with the simplest, yet safe way, to rewire this gen so others, who may not be mecahnically inclined, could do it as well. I think this design accomplishes that. Both outlets (depending on how you wire your 4 prong plug)are protected by a single CB rated at 25 amps but actually trips at a sustained 28 amps (the full rated power of this gen set) and breaker two should (have not tested) trip at about 13A sustained. In my testing, CB1 did not trip at a surge load of 32 amps but did trip at a sustained 28A. I think this effectively protects the gen set from overload. The wiring can easily be desined to put the CB's in parallel, but I think that is dangerous since the current would be split and I don't know when they would trip. I would imagine that CB two would still protect the circuits, but I just don't like paralell CB's.

[presp]

MrWizard wrote:

Wyatt-S wrote:
The schematic is posted in "my profile" for those interested.

BUT you have the whole 120 volt full 29 amps going thru (1) breaker as the other breaker is in the neutral circuit of the 30 amp twist lock and NOT in the 120 volt 'LOAD'path and is NOT being used

IMO: the breakers should be paralled in the load path, by using the method I outlined, or you could replace the breakerin the 120 load path with a heavier one.

Thanks Wyatt for the nice schematics you did in your profile.

It does appear that all of the "29 amps" will go thru cb#1, however,
cb#2 does properly protect (13+amp?) receptacle #2 even though its in the 'return' line.
Actally, this is just a current loop, most often a cb is put in the 'hot' line.
(with some of this wiring, the 'hot' line can be subjective)

One other thought;
replacing the voltmeter with an ampmeter might be a more useful display.
After all we cannot do much on these things to regulate the voltage but we can easily control the amps to limit the load.
(having an ampmeter on each circuit would be more useful for me)

Thanks to all for the excellent input and help to understand these gensets.
Pres

[MrWizard]

Wyatt-S wrote:
This is the re-wiring I was referring to in my previous post. The + and - signs do not depict actual polarity, merely coil phases for ID. As you can see voltage is supplied to both outlets of the Powerpro 3500 at 120 with the coils in parallel. The meter will read the correct voltage and the breakers remain wired in series with the outlets. A very simple rewire that gets the job done. Have not done it yet, will post results when I do. Comments are welcome.

The schematic is posted in "my profile" for those interested.

as far as phasing you are find..

BUT you have the whole 120 volt full 29 amps going thru (1) breaker as the other breaker is in the neutral circuit of the 30 amp twist lock and NOT in the 120 volt 'LOAD'path and is NOT being used

IMO: the breakers should be paralled in the load path, by using the method I outlined, or you could replace the breakerin the 120 load path with a heavier one.

[Sonic1954]

This is of my new Champion 3500 (4450 watt peek) watt gen set that I bought today at Checker Auto. It is wired for 120/240 so only 1750 watts is available for me to use with my camper. It is on sale for $299 It has the large muffler and is fairly quiet compared to my Coleman but loud compared to my Honda 3000. It came with a wheel kit that I have not yet installed as well as a 12 volt charging cable to charge up automotive batteries (10 amp). It also came with a spare foam air filter. It did come dry. NO oil in the crankcase. It does have 2 ell shaped shipping brackets that need to be removed. The engine is a 6.5hp Honda clone.



I have it running outside right now with a 1500 watt load on it. At 1 am, I am going to switch over to the other plug and run it to daylight to get it broken in a bit.

I want to configure it so ALL of the 3500 watts are going to be on the same set of the 120 volts. I do not need to generate 240 volts so wiring in a switch will not be necessary.

Below is a picture of the head of the gen set with the cover removed.



I think this is going to be an easy conversion since the coils of the gen set are conveniently wired to a terminal strip as shown in the picture. The red and dark blue wire go into the gen set as a pair and ohm out to be shorted when tested (test done with them removed from the terminal strip) and the white and brown wires show the same. The light blue (left side of picture) and another brown wire (right side of picture) (not seen, it is under the visible brown wire) go to the power panel. The center terminal has 3 wires on it. Two white and one red wire. One of these white wires go to the power panel. As already mentioned, the other 2 are paired with the light blue and the brown wire.

Would I be correct if I moved the center white wire to the dark blue and the center red wire to the brown wire? One side of my new 110 would then be the dark blue and white wire and the other side of my 110 would be the brown and red wire. The wire colors are consistent with the drawing by allpraisebob.

I'll be replacing the 240 volt plug with a 30 amp camper plug and doing something creative with the circut breaker.

Edit: The above wiring did work just as it was supposed to.

[Wyatt-S]

This is the re-wiring I was referring to in my previous post. The + and - signs do not depict actual polarity, merely coil phases for ID. As you can see voltage is supplied to both outlets of the Powerpro 3500 at 120 with the coils in parallel. The meter will read the correct voltage and the breakers remain wired in series with the outlets. A very simple rewire that gets the job done. Have not done it yet, will post results when I do. Comments are welcome.

The schematic is posted in "my profile" for those interested.

[Barton_Family]

The schematic I've drawn would illustrate this better but I don't know how to post it. That's where I was asking for help, not on the re-wiring.

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