3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

Skibane wrote:



If there are no legal consequences for cloning a genuine Honda or Yamaha product, why would any company bother to copy a copy instead?

N7BSN wrote:

Company "A" has a contract with Honda to build engine blocks, so they have access to the forging drawings/originals. One employee of "A" has a cousin that also casts engine blocks. This employee takes a casting to his cousin that then starts making these blocks for some clone builder. Only the cousin's firm as an employee that wants to start his own business, so he takes a casting home....

I believe N7BSN hit the nail on the head with his answer. If I may, I would like to expand with my perception of what happens:

A Chinese company goes to the trouble and expense to acquire and disassemble a name brand gas engine, like the Honda GX. They then make all the measurements and casting molds necessary to reproduce the components. This Chinese company, not having the actual ability to make the castings, gives these molds and specs to another Chinese company that specializes in making castings. As N7SBN alluded, yet another Chinese company approaches the one doing the castings and makes arrangements to purchase some for his new company. Since patent and copyright enforcement are so lax in China, there is no one to stop this practice. This new company then takes these castings and machines them into engines. These engines are copies of the copies and the machining/assembly process may involve many shortcuts. Then again, it is also possible they could improve on the source they are copying! Perhaps a few months later the deal goes sour with the company supplying the castings. So, the copy company takes a casting to another foundry and says, “Here, copy this”, and they do. But, this new foundry might use a lower quality alloy in their castings. The result is a weaker engine more subject to failure.

Now is all of this a factual account of what happens? Nope. It is a supposition based on a possible scenario that is in fact know to be commonplace in China. The same was true in Japan 15-20 years ago. Now the Chinese are copying the Japanese!

[n7bsn]

Skibane wrote:


If there are no legal consequences for cloning a genuine Honda or Yamaha product, why would any company bother to copy a copy instead?

Company "A" has a contract with Honda to build engine blocks, so they have access to the forging drawings/originals. One employee of "A" has a cousin that also casts engine blocks. This employee takes a casting to his cousin that then starts making these blocks for some clone builder. Only the cousin's firm as an employee that wants to start his own business, so he takes a casting home....

Outline of the cloning business in China

[Skibane]

professor95 wrote:

Since rip-offs are so commonplace in the Chinese market it is not at all unexpected that different Chinese companies will simply rip off other Chinese companies. In fact, they may completely clone another Chinese manufacturer’s product.

If there are no legal consequences for cloning a genuine Honda or Yamaha product, why would any company bother to copy a copy instead?

[MrWizard]

mrfixit454 wrote:
Wizard,
You are not far from me.. Have you looked at the Pepboys and Kragen's in your area to see what they sell??
thanks
Ramon

I bought my little champion 1200 at a local kragen's in August

the sunday 'la times' advs kragen has the champion 1200 for $199 ..all I remember about pepboys was they had a 4400 or 4500 model but i don't remember the details

I threw out some of the paper already.

sorry .. normaly it seems like i have that paper all week,

if i get near pepboys, i'll take a look see at what's in stock

[mrfixit454]

Wizard,
You are not far from me.. Have you looked at the Pepboys and Kragen's in your area to see what they sell??
thanks
Ramon

[mrfixit454]

Thanks Professor, I appreciate your wisdom. I was hoping you would chime in.( I am glad weather made it so you had time to post!) I guess we know that a copy of a copy is usually not as good. I am really looking for a unit w/ the voltage switch. I might take a gamble with the sterling unit and post. I have sent an email to the company with specific questions. What would be nice if Champion could be modified to add the voltage selection switch so you would not have to rewire back and forth to use each voltage(DPDT??). Any recommendations on a switch and if it is even possible w/ the champion?? or any others??
Thanks,
Ramon

[texasarrowhead]

I called the PowerPro rep he said next year all the units will be full watts and no need to rewire.So should be in stores soon!That sounds great and price should be the same.

[baddad]

I would like to thank the professer and others for all their views and help. I'm not an RV er but stumbled across this forum during a search on china made generators. I had a homelite L4400 generator but it quit on me after 5hrs of use during katrina causing me to lose all items in refridge/freezer besides 5 days of miserable hot weather without even a fan. (some rough nights)I vowed to have another generator before the next storm. Well finding a generator here in south louisiana right now is next to near impossible and or expensive. After reading all 150 pages of this forum I decided to go with the elim storm series 6600. This generator was based on yamaha tech but at 1/3rd cost. (cost was a big factor in my purchase as i couldn't afford around 2000.00 for the wattage i wanted)I received this generator friday 12-02-05 put it together fired it up put loads on it etc. My 1st impression, what a sweet machine, hardly any vibration and quiet for the 12hp engine it has. My feeling right now is i basically got a yamaha tech generator for 869.00 including shipping. Now i know time will be the true test of this generator, but considering my experience with the homelite model I feel like i brought a Mercerdes. Just wanted to thank all posters for their comments and realize the final decision was mine whether to take the chance on a china model. Just a final note elim international was a great e-bay company to deal with answering questions etc. And no i don"t work for elim international. Just a little old beer salesman. Thanks, Curt

[professor95]

This commentary/summary is intended for the "new" visitor of this forum. It is partially in response to the question about the Sterling appearing to be the same as the ELM3000, and those asking for some sort of overall summary as to the contents of this forum. It's kinda long - sorry, but our localized snow today has cancelled one of my afternoon classes at the college giving me the opportunity to address this issue.

The world of Chinese manufacturing and imports is one of extreme fascination. Apparently international patents and copyrights are not an item of interest to the Chinese government. In fact, respect and compliance of international patents and copyrights has recently been a hot item for negotiations between the Bush administration and Chinese government.

In China, most any industry can be started, provided enough capital exists, to make copies of most anything that is currently being manufactured by other companies – perhaps in Japan or the US where patent rights are strictly enforced. These industries therefore have the benefit of not having to do the R&D customary to product development we know of in our culture. That, added to the low labor cost in China, results in seemingly identical or similar products to what we encounter from more familiar companies.

This is both good and bad. It introduces a less expensive product to us as consumers, but stifles new product development by our well established homeland companies.

While these patent infringing products are supposedly banned from US markets, most are imported with little incidence. Small variances in design, consumer demand, volume of shipments and a lack of patent infringement suits from manufacturers has allowed the practice to continue at a seemingly unregulated pace.

These generators, or at least their engines, are a prime example. Honda (of Japan) designed the popular GX series engine some 10 years ago. The engine carried an international patent that was respected and enforced by the United States. But, Chinese companies were allowed by their government to make seemingly exact copies of these engines. While some of these companies did make some subtle changes, like a minor shift in displacement, they were true clones of the original. Of course, what these companies may not have done is assure tolerances and materials were comparable with the original. This often resulted in metals that were weaker, wore out faster and had more frequent failures. Many of these Chinese companies have strived to improve the quality of their products, and as a result, now manufacture engines with similar durability to the original Honda engine.

Some folks on this forum have said that they believe that this practice is OK because the original Honda patent has expired. I don’t know this to be true and personally have been unable to confirm that the Honda patent on the GX engine has expired.

Anyway, back to the story……. Since rip-offs are so commonplace in the Chinese market it is not at all unexpected that different Chinese companies will simply rip off other Chinese companies. In fact, they may completely clone another Chinese manufacturer’s product. Unfortunately, unless we have an experience based history there are no assurances that these copies of copies are of equal quality to the originals - or original copies. Such is the case in the Chinese Honda engine clone trilogy.

The ELIM3000 was manufactured by a Chinese company trading as JungDong. From all the information I have been able to gather, this is a fairly reputable Chinese manufacturing facility with a history of higher quality products (at least in the Chinese market) that has been around for about 20 years. Elim International imported the JungDong generator, having JungDong paint it red and attach the ELIM nameplate to the product. They (ELIM) also specified small changes in the features of the product. In the meantime, JungDong was also selling similar generators to other importers who had them painted their preferred color and with their label and special features.

I was initially told unofficially by a tech at Elim International that JungDong was manufacturing a licensed copy of the Honda GX160 engine, which was used on their early ELM3000 and ELM3000L. In fact, it was reported that JungDong may have actually built engines for Honda at one time. While this may seem absurd, consider the known fact that JungDong manufactured a line of Mopeds and small ATVs that were advertised in the US by PepBoys under the Honda name. The small print at the bottom of such ads informed us that the product was not built by Honda but was a licensed product. This lends creditability to the idea that JungDong did indeed have a license from Honda to make their engines. If this is true, the JungDong units are not just common rip-offs.

Elim International apparently no longer imports the JungDong units under their name, choosing to switch to another Chinese manufacturer operating under the name of Luntop. While not too many of the Luntop units have been discussed on this forum, they are also apparently of a reasonably good quality. The downside of the Luntop unit when compared to the JungDong is the ability to provide full wattage to a single outlet at 110-120 volts, a desirable feature for RV use. Elim International has apparently continued their ELM 3xxx model designation into their new line, causing some confusion from purchasers about what they are actually getting.

What we don’t know is how extensive the cloning of the JungDong product has been in China. I strongly suspect that many of these ELM3000 look-alike's may be copies of the copy.

Perhaps you have noticed how the gas tanks on all of these generators seem identical? How about the muffler or the generator frame? This is no coincidence, but an indication of how easily items get copied in China.

Honda is not the only company getting copied. Yamaha is another in the generator field seeing many clones. These are now appearing at PepBoys and similar outlets. These Yamaha cloned units have not seen extensive discussion on this forum. Perhaps they will in the future?

All of this “cloning” stuff is truly a point of confusion for the average consumer. Is the Chinese product something that is reasonably reliable and serviceable or pure junk made of melted down beer cans and old US automobiles recycled and shipped to China?

If this forum has established anything during its 10 month run, it is that the generators manufactured by JungDong and sold under the ELIM trade name as well as Wildfire, Harbor Freight, Cummings, Homier and a newcomer sold under tha name of Ultra 3500 are reasonably dependable units that represent a good value for RVers. While I do not know who makes them, we also know those units sold under the label of WEN PowerPro and Champion are also well represented and have proven to be satisfactory units for the RV enthusiast who wants reliable back-up power for his rig or home at a cost considerably less than a brand name Honda or Yamaha. Favorable reports have also been given for the “second generation” Nikota branded units sold by Costco Wholesale. We are still unsure if these units are “New Old Stock” left over from the Nikota bankruptcy and product liquidation or if the Nikota label has been revived by another importer. I also do not know who actually built this generator. Other units that this forum has not extensively discussed may or may not prove to be of equal value and performance. Units like the Sterling that “look alike” need to be further researched to establish their relationship to the JungDong product as well as their reliability. As I said earlier, these “may” be copies of copies!

I feel it is also significant to point out that some of these brands do not supply full power output to a single 110-120 volt outlet. Since these particular units may also generate 220-240 Volts AC, the output is often equally split across two 110-120 volt outlets. This is not desirable for a conventional RV with a 20 or 30 Amp power service. What we have learned is that virtually all of these units can easily and safely be converted to 110-120 volt output only and consequently provide full power to a single outlet through a simple internal wiring change. Many schematics and directions on how to accomplish this have been previously posted on this forum. I currently do not know of anyone who has screwed up this conversion and ruined their generator. Let's hope this remains to be true!

Personally, I would be inclined to stick with one of the labels that have become familiar. The sheer volume of JungDong units, along with WEN PowerPro and Champion brand names suggests that parts and service should be available for the foreseeable future.

Keep in mind that what I have written is based on my grasp of the market, what I have learned from other contributors to this forum, and my personal experiences. Remember, “Just because it may sound like I know what I am talking about doesn’t necessarily mean I do.”

Other opinions and observations are invited.

[mrfixit454]

The muffler looks different (maybe smaller??) I guess I will contact the seller for more details/schematic.

[ib516]

The sterling unit looks identical physically to my Elim3000. I wonder how long the list would be if someone ever compliled a list of the number of "names" the same generator is sold under. I'm betting 20+. I've seen the same gen with many different paint colors and names, but same generator more or less.

[MrWizard]

well

I like the way it's put togethere..

the kicker ( i guess ) is which factory makes the engine..

[mrfixit454]

This is a great thread. I have read all 150 pages and I am going back to better understand the tech stuff. Many thanks to those who have contributed here. I almost bought the Champion as it is available in my area. I would really like the ELIM (the volt switch feature) and started to search online and came across this. Anyone care to elaborate?? I really don't want to rewire any of these if I don't have to.

Ebay link to Sterling

Many thanks to Pat J on his thorough study of the Champion and to Professor95 and Wizard for all the tech stuff and research too. Any links to an ELIM seller would be great too. I did not see the 3000 on ELIMs website. My usage is primarily home backup in case of emergency but would like it to work for the RV as well. My only 220 is my stove/oven in the house.

Locally I can purchase Champion, Powerise (Kragen) , "All Power" (Pepboys) and another model at Pepboys... USA something or other. I have not gone to Harbor Freight yet.
Thanks,
Ramon

[mokanmikey]

AZDesertRat wrote:
Pep Boys had the Power Pro 3500 for $249 here in Phoenix on Friday. I took the ad to Checker auto and got their Champion 3500 for 5% off that amount or $237. I looked at the two and saw that the Champion was 3500 rated and 4400 surge while the Power Pro was 3000 rated and 3500 surge. There didn't seem to be much difference between the two other than that. I have seen the link to rewiring the Power Pro for all 120v but is there a detailed page showing the same for the Champion?

Heres a link from sonic1954 http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/15131645/srt/pa/pging/1/page/145.cfm

[micky11]

I bought the 3500 Power Pro from Pep Boys the day after Thanksgiving sale for $269.00 +tax.I posted my first message about this Gen on the wrong Forum.So here we go again.Today I put 1 gal of gas in it and it ran for 4 hrs and 30 min.pulling a 15000 btu ac unit.Thermostat was set at 72 and it was no problem for Gen.I will only use this while traveling and stopping for lunch to cool down TT.I could not see paying the price for the Honda or Yamaha even thou I know they are a lot better units.The noise is not that loud.