3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[LittleBill]

nitrification wrote:
It sounds like it could be a bad diode, but try the simple tests first:

1.) Fully charge the original battey with a car battery charger that you know works as you did before.

2.) Install the battery and see if it will start your generator. It should, with a strong kick.

3.) Shut down your generator and disconnect one lead off of that battery. Let it sit for a few days like this.

4.) reconnect that lead and see it it will restart the genset.

If it starts with a strong kick, I agree with the fellow that said that your charging circuit is 'leaky'. In that case, check the diode. Put your meter on low ohms or a diode setting and ensure that it conducts one way but not the other. There is a marking band on the diode as well - ensure that the band painted on the diode is closer to the battery terminal side and not the generator side. (generator---[ ||]--- battery) Perhaps someone made too many diode assemblies that day!

If it barely starts or is weak, you likely have a bad cell or cells in the battery.

nitri let me ask a question, so i may learn a little bit more, all battery chargers have the diodes? i understand their purpose, just unsure what exactly would cause the drain? also would the diode be on the + side of the charger output? and what size diode would you typically see?

[nitrification]

I better be clear on this - if the diode is on the positive lead, ensure that the band is closer to the positive terminal on the battery than on the generator:

(From alternator)---[ ||]----- + [battery] - --------(to alternator)
diode

[nitrification]

It sounds like it could be a bad diode, but try the simple tests first:

1.) Fully charge the original battey with a car battery charger that you know works as you did before.

2.) Install the battery and see if it will start your generator. It should, with a strong kick.

3.) Shut down your generator and disconnect one lead off of that battery. Let it sit for a few days like this.

4.) reconnect that lead and see it it will restart the genset.

If it starts with a strong kick, I agree with the fellow that said that your charging circuit is 'leaky'. In that case, check the diode. Put your meter on low ohms or a diode setting and ensure that it conducts one way but not the other. There is a marking band on the diode as well - ensure that the band painted on the diode is closer to the battery terminal side and not the generator side. (generator---[ ||]--- battery) Perhaps someone made too many diode assemblies that day!

If it barely starts or is weak, you likely have a bad cell or cells in the battery.

[Navychop]

TKS. I'll probably have to pay return shipping.

[LittleBill]

well to be honest im not quite sure how a generator charges the battery, well i know the onan 4.0 uses the converter to charge the battery, u have a small battery charger built into the generator, if its anything like my quad, there is a stator(alternator) and a voltage regulator, i would assume the stator is broke, but unless i tore your genny apart to understand it, im simply guessing at this point, personally for something that new i would send it back, as long as i didn't pay shipping, because that is a defect.

[Navychop]

Any idea as to what component might be bad? Anything I could likely swap out or get a local shop to do for say, less than an hour's labor plus parts?

I'm dreaming. I really like the generator and don't want to see it go back. The next one might not arrive in as good a shape.

BTW, with a fully charged battery, it starts instantly- less than a second.

[LittleBill]

Navychop wrote:
Professor95 and toprudder, thank you.

The battery shop had some test gear and said the battery appeared to be fine. I noted that he did not have one quite like it, size wise. The closest one was only 7 AH.

I have connected wires to the battery and reinstalled it, so I could take a live reading of the voltage when connected and running. The voltage with no battery was 13.5, with battery and running, it's 12.1 to 12.15. So I guess this indicates a problem with the charging circuit. Correct?

I suppose the headlight test is OBE, now.

I'll contact the seller and proceed from here.

if your only seeing 12.15 with the generator hooked up to the battery and running. then yes you have a charger problem with your generator. no need to do any other tests, that voltage is too low

[LittleBill]

professor95 wrote:

The only english on the battery is 9 amp hours, IIRC.

That sounds pretty low for a starting battery on a 6.5 HP gas engine. I know that is what Kippor provided, but the low current rating could be part of the problem.

my quad has a 13.8 hp motor, uses a 6 AH battery to electrically start it, it seems like his is more then big enough.

[Navychop]

Professor95 and toprudder, thank you.

The battery shop had some test gear and said the battery appeared to be fine. I noted that he did not have one quite like it, size wise. The closest one was only 7 AH.

I have connected wires to the battery and reinstalled it, so I could take a live reading of the voltage when connected and running. The voltage with no battery was 13.5, with battery and running, it's 12.1 to 12.15. So I guess this indicates a problem with the charging circuit. Correct?

I suppose the headlight test is OBE, now.

I'll contact the seller and proceed from here.

[dan35chev]

nigelstubblefield wrote:
I wonder if Champion will sell parts to upgrade the old generators?

I e-mailed Champion 2 days ago about upgrades and have not got a reply back as of yet.

[professor95]

The only english on the battery is 9 amp hours, IIRC.

That sounds pretty low for a starting battery on a 6.5 HP gas engine. I know that is what Kippor provided, but the low current rating could be part of the problem.

[Navychop]

Thank you, I am heading to a specialty battery store now. The only english on the battery is 9 amp hours, IIRC.

I will post findings.

[professor95]

NavyChop:

Based on the description of your battery, it sounds like you have something with a rating in the area of 16 to 20 amp hours. The fact that it is sealed indicates that it is not a conventional lead-acid battery with a liquid electrolyte. Rather, the electrolyte is an acidic “paste”.

The voltages you have given for immediately after charging (finish voltage), after a rest and overnight are normal for this type of battery. Finish voltages for this type of battery will not be as high as a conventional lead-acid and the voltage drops you recorded are expected.

As you asked, is the battery capable of providing full wattage? I seriously doubt that you will be able to get a reliable test at an auto parts store. Their “load or pile” will be too high to get an accurate reading for a battery of your capacity.

You might try testing it yourself with the following method:

While not exact, typical sealed beam headlights have two filaments. One is 55 watts, the other 60 watts. If both are on, the total wattage will be “somewhere” close to 120 watts. Divide the watts by the voltage (120/12.6) and the current draw should be a shade under 10 amps provided you hook both filaments in parallel. Use a sealed beam lamp with both high and low filaments that is good and has been removed from a car or perhaps purchased for a few bucks at a parts store. Whatever lamp you choose, you can easily find the wattage(s) by typing the type code into GOOGLE. With the battery full charged, connect the load (headlight). For a good 20 Ah battery, you should be able to power the load for two hours before the battery falls to 10.5 volts. If it won’t do it, you can use the 10 amp draw ( or actual current load) and time to determine the number of Ah you battery is providing.

A second issue was if the charging circuit was “leaking”. Try this: With the generator off, disconnect the battery. Hook your DMM to the charging leads and measure the resistance of the charging circuit. Be sure NOT to hold the DMM leads with your fingers as this can give a false reading. Let’s assume you get a reading of 10,000 ohms. Again, use Ohm’s law and divide your nominal battery voltage of 12.6 by the measured resistance. In this example, the current drain will be .00126 ampres, or 1.26 milliamps. At this rate, it would take over a year to drain the 20Ah battery. Whatever resistance reading you find, just do the math indicated by Ohm’s law.

If you get a low resistance reading across the charging circuit, you might try a high current diode in the positive lead with the cathode (stripe or point on the arrow) going toward the positive terminal of the battery. I would say a 5 amp 100 piv diode would work OK, but I would prefer a 10 amp to provide room for heat dissipation. The diode will cost you .7 of a volt to the battery (normal drop in a PN Junction diode). But, based on the numbers you gave me that would make little difference.

If you have not discovered the source of the problem by now, I hope this helps resolve the question.

[hrspecialist]

As a newcomer to this forum I have been following for quite some time the discussions regarding Chinese generators, their reliability and reasonable price. Based on the information supplied from this group, last week I purchased a Nikota generator from Costco. It started immediately and provided the same impressive performance as other owners had indicated.

I have also been very impressed with the advice provided by many of you. Professor, kudos to your input especially. You have been a great resource. By the way, as a young boy I spent many summers camping with my parents in Big Meadows Campground in beautiful Shenandoah National Park.

This is a great forum and a superb resource.

[toprudder]

Navychop wrote:
So what are YOUR thoughts? Bad battery? Charging circuit? Other electrical problem? Please chime in.

Sounds like a charge circuit problem to me.

What is the voltage on the battery while it is connected to the running generator? That would tell you. You can't depend on the terminal voltage with the battery disconnected. You should see something greater than 13.2v, I would happy to see 13.6 to 13.8.

The resting voltage of the battery should be about 12.6v. It will be higher after you take it off charge, and will slowly drop back down to 12.6v.