3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Dubman]

professor95 wrote:

Anybody have any thoughts about a Kipor KGE3500TI 3000W generator and where can you get one for $702 shipped?

I was hoping Navychop would respond to this one. There is some (limited) discussion on the Kippor a few pages back. Again, look for comments by Navychop.

As to $702 shipped? I think the forum might like to know that as well. If you have such a source, please share it.

I think last year Mike R. got his from svgenerator for that price, but he had to wait about 5 months for it. Don't think you will find one for that price anymore. svgenerator is selling on Ebay again, but his price is now higher. I'm pretty sure that is where that figure came from, but I may be wrong..

[professor95]

Anybody have any thoughts about a Kipor KGE3500TI 3000W generator and where can you get one for $702 shipped?

I was hoping Navychop would respond to this one. There is some (limited) discussion on the Kippor a few pages back. Again, look for comments by Navychop.

As to $702 shipped? I think the forum might like to know that as well. If you have such a source, please share it.

[professor95]

Will I be able to get all the juice through the duplex plugs on this gen or will I be better served with the new PowerPro 3500 with the voltage selector? I will be running a refrigerator on one of the duplexes and an A/C on the other. I appreciate your help. Here is the site: http://cpeauto.com/de3500w_gen.htm

On the Champion model you are asking about, all of the available wattage at 110 volts is distributed between two independent, non-connected outlets. You need to run two power cords to individual appliances to take advantage of all available power. Since a RV with a 30 amp supply only uses one power cord, this is a difficult situation to manage without running an additional cord inside the RV for the other appliance(s).

As you noted, the PowerPro allows full wattage at 110 volts to be routed to ONE outlet and thus ONE power cord.

The new RV Ready Champion due out next month will also have this feature.

[AZDesertRat]

I bought the Champion and am very happy with it. It runs my 13.5 Brisk Air AC, microwave, TV and all the lights at once. I even cycled the AC quite a bit and it just barely changes pitch when the AC cycles back on and nothing drops out or dims. I've used it to run my salt water reef tank with about 1000 watts of light, 1/4 HP chiller and 9 pumps and all is well with it too.
I first tried it on the 15A side of the twist lock and duplex outlet and it would not start the AC unit but once I switched to the 20 A side no problem. Kinda scared me!

[Gilitar]

Hey professor, I'm sorry to bug you with another question, but I found the Champion C46535 for $304 at Sams Club. My question is that the Champion has no voltage selector and since I only need 120 V would this generator work for me? I found the following specs on Champion's website:

Receptacles:

30 Amp 120/240 Twist lock (1) 15 amp breaker (240V)
(1) 20 amp breaker (120V)

20 Amp 120V Twin duplex - Right duplex 20 amp breaker, Left duplex 15 amp breaker

Will I be able to get all the juice through the duplex plugs on this gen or will I be better served with the new PowerPro 3500 with the voltage selector? I will be running a refrigerator on one of the duplexes and an A/C on the other. I appreciate your help. Here is the site: http://cpeauto.com/de3500w_gen.htm

[professor95]

emailed champion today as well. No response yet.

There is something definitely wrong with Champion's logic Here.

If a winding is limited to 14.5 Amps; Due to cross section area for current flow, heat build-up, and/or insulation type. Then its limited to 14.5 amps. Regardless if you are looking at an individual winding at 120 V or both windings at 240V.

What are we missing professor?

I could not have said it better than you just did. I hear their logic, but it does not fit my paradigm.

[dadsgp]

I emailed champion today as well. No response yet.

There is something definitely wrong with Champion's logic Here.

If a winding is limited to 14.5 Amps; Due to cross section area for current flow, heat build-up, and/or insulation type. Then its limited to 14.5 amps. Regardless if you are looking at an individual winding at 120 V or both windings at 240V.

What are we missing professor?

[dan35chev]

I asked champion why they used a 15A nd 20A breaker and this is the response I got.

The reason why we use a 15A and a 20A breaker is that we need to control at least one leg not to exceed 14.5 Amps max (15A breaker is the closest) since 220v operates at 1/2 amps of 110v. With at least a 15A output of each breaker we will get the max for 220V. If you breakered both at 20A, we stand a chance of exceeding the limits of the 220v amperage without one of the hot legs tripping the breaker. Therefore one leg is limited at 15 Amps before tripping the breaker. When one breaker trips, it will prevent the appliance from running, which will be an automatic indicator of a problem.

[839er]

Anybody have any thoughts about a Kipor KGE3500TI 3000W generator and where can you get one for $702 shipped?

[professor95]

just purchased the champion C46535. With the 20A and 15A duplex receptacles and the 120/240 L14 plug. Not ready to rewire for single 120V yet

Generator will be primarily for home use.

My question is this to professor?

Why not put both windings with 20 amp breakers? (replace 15A breaker with 20A). Obviously there is a limit of 6.5 hp but it would appear that since one winding is currently breakered for 20 amps then the generator windings themselfs are capable of handling the amperage. In addition breakers are typically only good for 80% of amperage rating there should be plenty of hp assuming a decent generator effeciency.

In addition,my outdoor temp never exceeds 75 F and generator will be for winter power loss.

I wonder why the existing parallel units are limiting to 13A per winding?

If both winding are 20A, this would allow better use of the existing 240/120 plug to a small transfer switch panel. The small transfer panels at Lowe's have wattmeter per each side and are setup for 120/240 V with L14 plug. I do not plan on starting any loads greater than a 20 amp breaker. NO AC units in Alaska.

I think you have all this watts, amps and voltage stuff together. Your question indicates that you understand the concepts. But, just to be safe, let me run something up the flagpole (so to speak) once again:

Watts is a measurment of how much WORK can be done. It is a result of multiplying the voltage (pressure) times the amperage (current).

We can neither create or destroy energy. We can only convert it. What comes out of a conversion machine cannot exceed what goes in.

In a generator rated at 3000 watts, we typically will find an option of selecting 220 volts with a current of 13.63 amps or 110 volts with a current of 27.27 amps. Both allow 3,000 watts of work to be done.

Most guys on this list understand that if they put two 12 volt batteries on their RV the amperage of the individual batteries will add, but the voltage will not. As an alternative, some select two 6 volt batteries in series. In this case, the voltage adds to equal 12 volts but the current remains the same as one battery (provided they are equal to begin with).

The windings in your generator behave just like the battery example. You stated that they are 20 amps each. Sorry, but they are not 20 amps each. If they were, we would be able to do 4,400 watts worth of work.

Your windings are cpable of providing about 13 amps EACH. In series, that is 220 volts at 13 amps or almost 3,000 watts. In parallel that is still 13 amps each but current combines to a total of about 26 amps, still almost 3,000 watts.

Remember, we cannot create or destroy energy - only convert it. And we can't get more energy out of the machine than we put in.

On the breaker size thing. NEC advises operating a breaker at 80% of its maximum capacity. Thus, a 20 amp breaker should be adequate for a continious 16 amp load and a 15 amp breaker for a continious 12 amp load. Note how the numbers fit your generator specs.

I do not know why Champion selected two breakers of 20 and 15 amps respectively. Personally, I think the 20 is too high. But, they have competent engineers designing these things and they provide the warranty, so I am sure their reasons are good.

If your generator were mine, I would leave the breakers alone - even if I did live in Alaska.

[professor95]

We are getting ready to use the ELIM 3000 for a trip next month. In terms of safety, is anyone using a portable GFCI with this type of genset?
Do these prevent most occurrences of any type of electrical schock that could occur by using a portable power device?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the type of portable GFCI would be compatible?

I know this was discussed earlier in this thread, but I just wanted to follow up to see if anyone has had any safety issues.

Thanks in advance!

A GFCI is always a good idea. And, yes it will afford extra protection from electrical shock.

I use a 30 amp commercial RV GFCI on my camper. It will drain your pocket of about a $100. But, it is good for all applications, not just the generator.

I don't know if you are handy with wires and such or not. But, you might consider buying a 20 amp plug, some 12-3 SJ or SO wire, a 20 amp conventional GFCI, a weatherproof box with cover for the GFCI and another weatherproof box & cover for a 30 Amp TT outlet. Connect the two boxes together with plastic or rigid conduit about 6" long. Use a weather proof box conector with a rubber compression seal for the cord to the generator. Cost of all materials will be in the area of $50 to $60 at perhaps a Home Depot or Lowe's. You can cut the cost in half by eliminating the 30 amp TT outlet and box and just using a "dogbone" type adapter plugged into the GFCI.

You might also find some ready-made "contractor" type of inline GFCI at the above stores where the power cords are stocked.

Either way, I consider it a good investment.

[Clark_W__Griswo]

We are getting ready to use the ELIM 3000 for a trip next month. In terms of safety, is anyone using a portable GFCI with this type of genset?
Do these prevent most occurrences of any type of electrical schock that could occur by using a portable power device?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the type of portable GFCI would be compatible?

I know this was discussed earlier in this thread, but I just wanted to follow up to see if anyone has had any safety issues.

Thanks in advance!

[dadsgp]

I just purchased the champion C46535. With the 20A and 15A duplex receptacles and the 120/240 L14 plug. Not ready to rewire for single 120V yet

Generator will be primarily for home use.

My question is this to professor?

Why not put both windings with 20 amp breakers? (replace 15A breaker with 20A). Obviously there is a limit of 6.5 hp but it would appear that since one winding is currently breakered for 20 amps then the generator windings themselfs are capable of handling the amperage. In addition breakers are typically only good for 80% of amperage rating there should be plenty of hp assuming a decent generator effeciency.

In addition,my outdoor temp never exceeds 75 F and generator will be for winter power loss.

I wonder why the existing parallel units are limiting to 13A per winding?

If both winding are 20A, this would allow better use of the existing 240/120 plug to a small transfer switch panel. The small transfer panels at Lowe's have wattmeter per each side and are setup for 120/240 V with L14 plug. I do not plan on starting any loads greater than a 20 amp breaker. NO AC units in Alaska.

[Gilitar]

It makes sense to me now. Thanks for the info professor!

[triplej]

Thanks Professor for the info!!!! I have an adaptor that will enable me to plug my 30amp plug from my popup into the 120 outlet. This should work fine. I think it will be enough also to keep the refrigerator, and a few lights on when the power goes out.

Like I said in an earlier post, this gen started up first pull, and runs smooth. The manual says it runs at 67dBa.... but to my ears it seems lower than a contractor rigg, but still too noisy for camping. I may make some sort of vented box to muffle the sound.

Thanks,

Triplej