3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[catalina30]

camperdave wrote:
following up on my last post, I've been thinking about the rewire. In the case of the Champion, there are 2 circuit breakers installed, one 15a, one 20a, one installed on each winding output and then wired to 2 separate 120v outlets. I'm thinking if I wire the two windings in parallel at the head (not sure if that is the correct terminology?), could I simply use the wiring as it is from the factory running through the one 20a breaker? The other 15a breaker would no longer be connected to anything, and only one of the two 120v outlets would function (fine with me). I'd be running the full power of the generator through the single wire from head to panel, but it's limited by the factory 20a breaker so would it be sufficient to prevent damage? I figure I plug into a 20a circuit here at my house with no problems, so I should be fine on my power needs. If needed I could replace the wire from head to panel with 10awg, but is that even required

I like this method because it requires no changes at all to the panel, just moving two wires at the head.

first off the answer is yes, the genset will be protected, if you get the windings paralleled right, all the power will go thru the 20A breaker, a 3000w generator will produce 24A. That leaves 4 amps not available to you, but the generator head will not burn up because you are pulling to much out of it. as far as the wire I would not replace the wire unless you are sure the insulation type is the same. second you are not using a larger breaker right.

Kevin
the Right Lane

[professor95]

following up on my last post, I've been thinking about the rewire. In the case of the Champion, there are 2 circuit breakers installed, one 15a, one 20a, one installed on each winding output and then wired to 2 separate 120v outlets. I'm thinking if I wire the two windings in parallel at the head (not sure if that is the correct terminology?), could I simply use the wiring as it is from the factory running through the one 20a breaker? The other 15a breaker would no longer be connected to anything, and only one of the two 120v outlets would function (fine with me). I'd be running the full power of the generator through the single wire from head to panel, but it's limited by the factory 20a breaker so would it be sufficient to prevent damage? I figure I plug into a 20a circuit here at my house with no problems, so I should be fine on my power needs. If needed I could replace the wire from head to panel with 10awg, but is that even required?

I like this method because it requires no changes at all to the panel, just moving two wires at the head.

If I understand your question, description and conclusion correctly, the answer is a simple yes.

But, just to be sure, the 20 amp breaker cannot remain in only one winding - it must be on the output of both parallel windings. The 15 amp breaker is then totally eliminated from the circuit. If you are sure this is accomplished, you should be good to go.

Some of the other guys may have a different take on this. If they do, hopefully they will share their views as well.

[camperdave]

following up on my last post, I've been thinking about the rewire. In the case of the Champion, there are 2 circuit breakers installed, one 15a, one 20a, one installed on each winding output and then wired to 2 separate 120v outlets. I'm thinking if I wire the two windings in parallel at the head (not sure if that is the correct terminology?), could I simply use the wiring as it is from the factory running through the one 20a breaker? The other 15a breaker would no longer be connected to anything, and only one of the two 120v outlets would function (fine with me). I'd be running the full power of the generator through the single wire from head to panel, but it's limited by the factory 20a breaker so would it be sufficient to prevent damage? I figure I plug into a 20a circuit here at my house with no problems, so I should be fine on my power needs. If needed I could replace the wire from head to panel with 10awg, but is that even required?

I like this method because it requires no changes at all to the panel, just moving two wires at the head.

[camperdave]

back to the generators at hand... I picked up the Champion version at Kragen last week, and took it camping this weekend. It's about on par, noise wise, with most motorhome built in gensets, and MUCH louder than the EU3000i that was a few sites down. I ran it in the back of my van so it was fairly quiet on three sides, and really loud on one 🙂 If this was something I would need often at a campground, it's simply too loud for me. In my case, 90% of my usage will be at motorcycle tracks in the summer, and noise is pretty much a non-issue there.

Anyway, I'm going to be rewiring it for full output this week and may post back if I run into any more questions.

[MrWizard]

KomfortLite20 wrote:

If you leave the regulator intact you can put a 12volt to 120 volt step-up transformer on the ac side to get regulated power at any engine speed.

also the versa power

as i remember it, put out DC voltage , the amplitude depending on motor speed so a adjustable/lockable throttle was needed to maintain anything near an even voltage level

resistive loads and power tools with brushes worked just find, I never tried or ever saw any one watching TV with one..

yes you could 'stick' weld if you were careful

todays 'modern' alternators come with the regulator inside the alternator

so comfortlites idea of a transformer & the 'versa power' an't gonna work because they would be to damm hard to install

and a new alternator with external regulator will still have diodes inside, and cost more than a cheap generator

look them up on some 'off road' website or specs for emg vehicles like ambulances and fire trucks

I think all this was covered in another thread

[professor95]

KomfortLite20 wrote:
If you leave the regulator intact you can put a 12volt to 120 volt step-up transformer on the ac side to get regulated power at any engine speed.

I would like to know a little more about this, especially if it is something you actually accomplished rather than had someone else tell you.

According to my old brain's database, in order to use a transformer you would need to tap into the alternator before the diodes. This would require opening the circuit. The frequency of the AC signal at that point can vary from 180 Hz to over 1,000 Hz depending on engine speed and the number of alternator poles. Typical 60Hz step-up transformers will not tollerate frequencies this high and are prone to turn to charcoal chunks rather quickly. Also, transformers do not "regulate" without aditional circuits. You see, a 12 to 120 volt transformer has a turns ratio of 1 to 10. This would mean if the input went up by just one volt, the output would rise by ten volts.

Now, please do not misunderstand my response. If you say you did it, I believe you. I just don't understand how you did it and made it work. Maybe there is some more info you can share?

Oh yes, I remember the rewired automotive DC generators to obtain AC. I had one maybe 30 years ago and put it behind a 5 HP engine. But, when I really needed it after an ice storm, the engine sucked a loose screw from the carb butterfly up the intake and broke the valve. After that, I gave up and bought a WWII surplus Homelite generator.

[catalina30]

professor95 wrote:

cmg3500 wrote:
would like to see the schematic (110vDC alternator conversion).
Can you please post it?if not can you PM me?
Thanks

Yup professor95, had one of those installed in the engine compartment of my 60 valiant. I don't know if those were simpler times or harder times, as my 90 year old uncle tells me " the good old days were good because we were young"

Kevin
The Right Lane

[KomfortLite20]

On the subject of "poorboy generators" made with a horizontal shaft lawnmower engine & auto alternator, I can offer some personal experiences with these things. Before inverters were a dime a dozen & digital variable speed generators would have been wishful thinking, I made a couple of these generators. First of all, the ac side of alternators puts out varying high frequencies. Induction motors will not run on it. It takes about 5,000rpm to get 120 volts from an auto alternator. The ac frequency is especially high on Delco alternators since they have 7 rotor poles as opposed to 6 on most others. If you leave the regulator intact you can put a 12volt to 120 volt step-up transformer on the ac side to get regulated power at any engine speed. It was nice to be able to use different pullies to reduce the engine speed for noise reduction on these generators. As for being able to get 120 volts ac 60 cycles from a junkyard auto part IT CAN BE DONE & I HAVE DONE IT! You will need a 6 volt auto generator. The armature can be re-wound for ac at 3,600rpm & it will put out around 1,000 watts. I got the plans from an ad in a tech magazine many years ago & still have them somewhere. With the cheap prices for quality inverters & generators it doesn't pay to build this junk, but it makes a fun old-school tinkering project. Don't plug any appliances you care about into any of these things.

[professor95]

cmg3500 wrote:
would like to see the schematic (110vDC alternator conversion).
Can you please post it?if not can you PM me?
Thanks

catalina30 wrote:
No Professor95, I am using an inverter for the 110AC, it is not that difficult to stick with 12VDC now days, and the only reason I said what I did about off list is so I would get the post, many days I am not on the list but do see if I have any messages. I am working on a mount to make assembly easy and a way to modify an auto muffler the easy way. I figure that the biggest noise of the genset avalible as standard is the RPM, and charging the batteries is all that is needed when using an inverter. this would be what the honda group found out with there quiet generators. Simple enough but some people would rather use a proven assembly plan than start from scratch, I would consider assembling a complet system for people but transport could be a problem.

Kevin
The Right Lane

I see, Kevin. Sounds like an great approach.

and…… cmg3500, I will be glad to share the schematic. Of course, some dial-up readers may get a little upset at the size of the content.

In the early 70’s I had a ’68 Skamper pop-up. Most of the places we went back then were rather primitive compared to campgrounds today.

I decided to make a generator. This was logical since not only had the Chinese not entered the market, but the Japanese were not even importing generators to the US yet.

I built a plywood box platform, resurrected a Clinton gas engine from a Coldwell Super Bear reel mower (about 3 HP), picked up a Chrysler alternator in a junk yard and attached a pulley on the engine and a belt to the alternator. I made the switch box as pictured so I could generate both 12VDC and 110VDC power. You did have to have a 12 volt battery to excite the alternator field so the 110VDC part would work.

It was amazing! While I didn’t really need a gas generator for camping, I wanted one (still true today?). I powered AC/DC appliances like a coffee pot, hot plate, toaster, and electric fry pan. I had several strings of C9 Christmas lights I would hang around the campsite and light it up like an airport landing strip. Other campers would stare in awe at the spectacle. No one ever complained about engine noise, I had added a homemade muffler fabricated from a 2 gallon metal bucket with a lid for the exhaust. Of course, I would retire it early so as to not disrupt other campers.

I could not run pure AC appliances like fans, air conditioners and TV/Radio sets with transformers. Hooking these appliances to 110VDC would have ruined them very quickly. Essentially, any 120 volt AC appliance that is purely resistive or has a brush type motor will also work well on DC.

I don't believe I ever actually got 110 volts out of the alternator. I am thinking 95 to 100 was about max. But, that was OK - it just meant it took a few minutes longer to perk a pot of coffe and the C9 blubs glowed a little softer.

Sorry if I bored you with my trip down nostalgia lane. Some of us that really do remember Elvis sometimes do that.

I dug the schematics and info out of a rusty file cabinet down in the barn just a little while ago(I rarely throw things like this away). I hope they are readable. If you should build one of these, please let me know how it turns out.

[cmg3500]

I would like to see the schematic (110vDC alternator conversion).
Can you please post it?if not can you PM me?
Thanks

[catalina30]

professor95 wrote:

You may consider a "poorboy generator" made from an old 60A delco auto alt. I made one using a lifan motor from Pep boys. Not that hard to do and using a quiet muffler is quiet at low rpm because the motor is never running at max power. with some of the inclosures discuss on this list it is as quiet as a honda 1000i, I know this because I use a honda as well. the system I have put together will run my 1000w micro for short times and 1 gallon of gas will run the thing for about 6hrs. The 3500 I have will only be used for the AC and if a small AC unit like they sell at wally world will cool my TT I will likely not need the 3500 at all. If you would like more info on this system send me a private message.

Kevin
The Right Lane

I used to build these things all the time, Kevin. Mostly from MoPar alternators with the external regulator. But, the output was 110V DIRECT CURRENT, not 60 Hz AC. They were great for things like coffee pots, electric drills, power saws and incandescent lighting. But, the output would quickly ruin an inductive/transformer device designed for 60 Hz AC only.

Are we talking about the same thing, or do you have some different animal that I am unfamiliar with? I would be glad to post my schematic to convert an (older) car alternator to 110 DC output.

No Professor95, I am using an inverter for the 110AC, it is not that difficult to stick with 12VDC now days, and the only reason I said what I did about off list is so I would get the post, many days I am not on the list but do see if I have any messages. I am working on a mount to make assembly easy and a way to modify an auto muffler the easy way. I figure that the biggest noise of the genset avalible as standard is the RPM, and charging the batteries is all that is needed when using an inverter. this would be what the honda group found out with there quiet generators. Simple enough but some people would rather use a proven assembly plan than start from scratch, I would consider assembling a complet system for people but transport could be a problem.

Kevin
The Right Lane

[professor95]

You may consider a "poorboy generator" made from an old 60A delco auto alt. I made one using a lifan motor from Pep boys. Not that hard to do and using a quiet muffler is quiet at low rpm because the motor is never running at max power. with some of the inclosures discuss on this list it is as quiet as a honda 1000i, I know this because I use a honda as well. the system I have put together will run my 1000w micro for short times and 1 gallon of gas will run the thing for about 6hrs. The 3500 I have will only be used for the AC and if a small AC unit like they sell at wally world will cool my TT I will likely not need the 3500 at all. If you would like more info on this system send me a private message.

Kevin
The Right Lane

I used to build these things all the time, Kevin. Mostly from MoPar alternators with the external regulator. But, the output was 110V DIRECT CURRENT, not 60 Hz AC. They were great for things like coffee pots, electric drills, power saws and incandescent lighting. But, the output would quickly ruin an inductive/transformer device designed for 60 Hz AC only.

Are we talking about the same thing, or do you have some different animal that I am unfamiliar with? I would be glad to post my schematic to convert an (older) car alternator to 110 DC output.

[catalina30]

tmill2 wrote:

Any more info on these units? I am looking for one for my popup, which doesnt have A/C. The biggest thing I am worried about is the noise level. DONT TELL ME to buy a Honda or Yamaha.... I cant afford one. Thats why I have a `81 popup.....

You may consider a "poorboy generator" made from an old 60A delco auto alt. I made one using a lifan motor from Pep boys. Not that hard to do and using a quiet muffler is quiet at low rpm because the motor is never running at max power. with some of the inclosures discuss on this list it is as quiet as a honda 1000i, I know this because I use a honda as well. the system I have put together will run my 1000w micro for short times and 1 gallon of gas will run the thing for about 6hrs. The 3500 I have will only be used for the AC and if a small AC unit like they sell at wally world will cool my TT I will likely not need the 3500 at all. If you would like more info on this system send me a private message.

Kevin
The Right Lane

[professor95]

Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but there is no 1000W Chinese genset thread, and the "buy a Honda, Yamaha or nothing" types seem to avoid this one.

Personally, I think it fits this thread well.

Northern Tools just up the road from you (Richmond) has the little generators in stock. The price is about double what you saw on e-Bay, but you pay no shipping at the retail level, get immediate satisfaction and a good return option should there be a problem.

I think you have a good idea going. I really enjoyed seeing the folks and their innovations in the links you supplied. I often put a 5,0000 BTU unit in a tent when the grown-up kids join us on a camping trip (they prefer their own quarters).

I have also powered a 6,500 BTU unit from my little 1,400 watt Kawasaki with no problems.

[cmg3500]

the ones at Walmart(A/C units) should run off of a 1000 watt gen.
I have one that I run off of a 1000 watt cont./2000 surge Xantrex inverter,hooked to 9-88AH batteries hooked up in parrell.The A/C unit only pulls around 5-6 amps,not a whole lot more when it starts.