3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[larryslocum]

What a great forum. Thanks for the info on my converter. I've got to solve this problem with my generator and stay within my meager budget. I camp without electricity most every day, often in the pines here in Northern California. Is it possible or warranted for me to adjust the frequency of the Champion? Do you think I will have a similar problem with the ELIM or the Wen units. Does anyone have any familiarity with the electric start 6.5hp units offered at Amazon.com ($299) by toolshopusa or the ones offered at Dexin Intl.(DuroPower)? The GG3500 at toolshopusa seem like a good buy with the 6.5hp engine with electric start, but I guess the important issues for an RV are amps at the plug and the Hz output. Cheers

[toprudder]

professor95 wrote:

toprudder wrote:
I still have it (old ferroresonant converter)if there is anything in particular you would like for me to try. One thing I have not yet done is to hook up my o'scope to look at the generator output. I have also adjusted the generator since then, the frequency was a little low at 58 Hz.

Actually, there is something I would appreciate your trying.

Open the converter and remove the capacitor across the transformer. Once removed, check voltage output on a 60Hz line and, if at all possible, with a generator running off frequency (or use an adjustable function generator like I did a few pages back).

I think you know where I am going with this.......

I won't be able to get to this right away, but I will let you know when I do.

[professor95]

toprudder wrote:
I still have it (old ferroresonant converter)if there is anything in particular you would like for me to try. One thing I have not yet done is to hook up my o'scope to look at the generator output. I have also adjusted the generator since then, the frequency was a little low at 58 Hz.

Actually, there is something I would appreciate your trying.

Open the converter and remove the capacitor across the transformer. Once removed, check voltage output on a 60Hz line and, if at all possible, with a generator running off frequency (or use an adjustable function generator like I did a few pages back).

I think you know where I am going with this.......

[professor95]

The Champion C46535 is rated at 68 dbi at 7 meters, thats right out of the manual that came with it. Having worked around portable gasoline powered equipment all my life I tend to think that is pretty accurate. I will have to borrow a dB meter from my old employer to see if it accurate. I have run mine in my back yard with no complaints.

The difference between 68dB and 76db is significant. Seems we have two different printed sound ratings from Champion.

I do not own a Cha...

[professor95]

Also professor can you check these 2 generators out for me and see if you can tell the differences between the 2:

http://www.duropower.com/

There are 2 6.5hp 3500 watt generators, they look different and appear to have different receptacles and 1 is more than the other. Cna you tell me if one of them is RV ready?

I can't tell you anything about the model 3500R other than what is posted on the web site. I do not recognize the unit as one I am familiar with.

The Model 3500 is a JungDong built generator with the same design and features as the original ELM3000. It has two 120 volt outlets and one 220 volt outlet. The unit has a switch that will allow you to select full wattage out to a single 120 volt outlet (in this case, both 120 outlets are parallel). I own one of the original ELM3000/JungDong units and have been very pleased with it. Buit, we did have some reports early on of ELM3000/JungDong units pooping out early in life and having to be returned for repair or exchange. An ELIM International engineer once told me that this is the reason they switched from JungDong to Lunatop generators for their product line.

Neither unit is "RV READY" in respect to connections. Either one would need an adapter to mate the standard 120 outlet to the TT 30 amp outlet. While the RV Ready feature is convenient, it is not necessary to have one designed with a RV plug to get reliable service with a 30 amp camper connection. Adapters work very well in most cases and are less than $10. What is important is having all available wattage routed to a single 120 outlet (without having to rewire).

As far as brush vs. brushless, there have been several discussions on the pros and cons of either design. The plus side is a brushless unit had fewer friction wearing parts, while a brush type unit may eventually need some replacement brushes. Brushes also are know to arc, sometimes casuing noise in sensitive electrical appliances. But, again, I have no reports of this being a problem on these units.

On the plus side the units with brushes (or slip rings) appear to have a more complex and accurate voltage regulation unit, while those that are brushless are using an AC capacitor and diode for regulation (not as accurate).

At this point, I personally do not believe brushes vs. brushless is a decision making factor in your selection of one of these generators. Both are good designs and either one should give you acceptable service.

I have no idea what PowerPro has planned for the future as far as a unit with a RV outlet. But, I "suspect" that the market is well aware of the volume of these units that are now being purchased by the RV community. If they see it as a desirable sales feature, it will eventually be added to additional makes and models that want to remain competitive in this area.

[jeebs08]

Also professor can you check these 2 generators out for me and see if you can tell the differences between the 2:

http://www.duropower.com/

There are 2 6.5hp 3500 watt generators, they look different and appear to have different recepticles and 1 is more than the other. Cna you tell me if one of them is RV ready?

[jeebs08]

the champion websites says this about them:

5. Sound Levels : dBa scale at 22.75 ft. Facing sound meter@operating load
Engine : 76 dBa
Panel : 72 dBa
Muffler : 70 dBa
Backside : 72 dBa

That is pretty high!
Professor, this engine has brushes and your ELIM appears to be brushless, can you tell me the difference in performance?
Do you know if the Power Pro has brushes or not and if they have the RV plug?

[AZDesertRat]

The Champion C46535 is rated at 68 dbi at 7 meters, thats right out of the manual that came with it. Having worked around portable gasoline powered equipment all my life I tend to think that is pretty accurate. I will have to borrow a dB meter from my old employer to see if it accurate. I have run mine in my back yard with no complaints.

[professor95]

The Champion is rated at 76db whereas the Elim is 67db. The Champion is indeed too loud for campgrounds or camping within 50 to 100 yards from anything other than trees! Believe me I know, I have boondocked with my Champion a few hundred times in the last year. (reliable generator though). Back to your question about my RV converter, it is a Triad-Utrad model TU 570-2. I'm not sure of its output amperage as I have no listing/description of it in my Vogue manual. I can probably find out though if it is critical.

Ouch! Doesn't look like my track record has been too good this week. I sort of blew it on the ferroresonate converter concept. Still scratching my head on that one. Then I blew it on the Champion noise level. I vaguely remember now that it was rated louder on their web site but do not recall anyone coming forward to say it was really that loud. Now I am wondering what the difference is between the Champion and, for example, my ELM3000. Maybe it is in the muffler - I just don't know. The good part is that I learned a lot this week on the forum, and I thank those who contributed better info.

I think Mel pretty well put it all together on the Triad-Utrad converter. I did some searching and came up with the same info he pointed out. As such, it does look like you will have a problem with this converter and a generator that is not rock solid on frequency. Right off hand, I would venture to guess the Kippor Sine Master or Honda 2000/3000 inverters would be better to power such a converter. Perhaps you might want to carry a conventional battery charger with you and just bypass the converter?

I'll drop a note to Paul Cole at Champion on the noise level issue to see what his response is. He has been pretty good about addressing such issues. Ironically, it was the input from this forum that led to the creation of the RV ready unit they are now producing. Maybe if we push the noise issue some changes will be made there as well.

As far as the question about an ELIM unit being made RV ready, I don't have a clue what they are planning on now. I no longer have a contact at ELIM International and have not had any new info from them since last fall.

But, I do believe this forum has been influential with several manufacturers and importers. While I have no proof, I strongly suspect our input had something to do with the WEN PowerPro changing over to a design that would give full current at 120 volts from a single outlet.

Keep telling the importers what you want...... without that input, nothing will probably ever change.

[Navychop]

From first hand experience, I can assure you that a larger muffler will have no effect on a loud generator. I put a larger muffler on a Coleman (please excuse the filthy language) 5000ER I once owned. No noticeable difference.

There is nothing good to be said about a loud generator. Not even "inexpensive." Do not waste your money. You can get quieter generators for little or no monetary difference.

[MELM]

larryslocum - The Triad Utrad line was purchased by Magnetek. But, I have found a website with info on the Triad Utrad converters. It's basically on the GMC motorhomes, but has the converter brochure in Acrobat format: Triad Utrad Converters. Scroll down the page, and you can read it one page at a time. Your converter is rated for 70 amps. It'll charge to 70-80% fairly quickly, and then get out a calendar.

Have you checked the frequency of the converter? Note, they even reported the problems with generator frequencies under 60 Hz back then - it's in the info on that site.

If you don't have a frequency meter, you still may be able to measure the frequency. If you have an old electric clock (plug it in the wall) with a second hand, connect it to the gen. Use your watch and compare how long it takes the second hand to make a complete revolution (one minute). I'll guess it takes 62 or 63 seconds, hence the frequency is 58 or 57 Hz. (I use three minutes and divide the error by 3 - I get more accuracy with my old, slow reflex times.)

Some microwave ovens use the 60 Hz AC for the timer/clock function. If yours does and it has the countdown timer, you can set the timer for one minute and then compare that with your watch. Same as above.

I'd like to keep this thread on the generators, I've done some posts on the Parallax/Magnetek converters and the slow charge rates. If you don't find them, start a new topic and I'll find them again.

Mel

[vacuumbed]

Hey everyone, here's my journey with gensets and TT's

I take my 1995 Holiday Rambler 32' Travel Trailer to a festival where I need power for a few weeks (several hours a day) without the hassle of refueling all the time. Another issue is that it needs to not be so loud. As many of you know, many travel trailers have no place to put a genset, and a fuel tank too.

My first generator was a portable coleman 5 KW gas with a briggs and stratton engine. It was not so great, it was loud, used about 1 gallon per hour with a 5 gal tank, and tripped the breaker often.

My second one was a 6 KW enclosed silent diesel from Eastern Tools and is made in China. It cost me about $2,500. I bypassed the fuel tank and used a 55 gallon barrel full of diesel. I also wired a remote ignition switch so I could start it from inside my TT.
THE GOOD: Plenty of power. THE BAD: The engine shutdown system is controlled by cables, linkage and solenoid. VERY tempermental, if the adjustment on it is not perfect, it will not shut down. One week into my vacation it did this, and drove me nuts 😞
After I got back home, I returned it and went back to the drawingboard.

Now here is my latest. you won't believe what I've done. Are you sitting down for this 😉
I bought one of those Light Tower towable units that you often see on the freeway at night for road construction. It's used and picked it up for $2,500. It has a Mitsubishi 3 cylinder diesel with an onboard 30 gal fuel tank. The one concern is that I found out that this particular generator head does not use a regulator, it is capacitor excited. (Those big lights don't need clean power, so its only equiped with a capacitor generator head).
I thought it might blow out appliances in my TT, so I monitored in with a volt meter, and it stayed steady at 130 volts just as long as I did not turn on the big lights, if I did the voltage would jump about 15 volts. So I thought it could be used for my TT just as long as the big lights were not turned on while my TT was plugged into it. The good news however about the capacitor excited unit is that all I had to do to get full power at 110 volts is to rewire the genator head. On a regulated genset, to convert it to full power at 110, you must replace the regulator, at the tune of about $600.00. Most of us RV'ers don't have a need for 220, and on any genset that has the 110/220 capability, half of the generator is sitting there unused if you only use 110. I also wired a remote start so that I could start it remotely from inside my TT. Oh yes, I now have to tow doubles, the light tower behind my TT but it tows great!

The result:
It worked great. Plenty of power for my 15,000 BTU A/C and other stuff at the same time. It started and stopped when I needed it to, never had to refuel it in my two week stay, did not damage sensitive electronics in my TT, and its much quieter than anything I've had in the past.
I have gone crazy trying to find a good solution to RV power over the years, how funny that the solution turned out to be a LIGHT TOWER TRAILER. :B

[jeebs08]

Professor, as you can see the Champion is much louder than the ELIM3000.
Is the ELIM3000 coming out with a "RV edition" that you know of?
Thanks for your help!

[larryslocum]

Professor 95: I have a question about RV charging. When hooked up to external power or to the internal generator of my Vogue Class A, I get 13 to 14 volts through my converter (at the battery) depending on battery charge (8D). When hooked up to my Champion 3500 generator (early model) I never get more than 12.3 volts no matter what the battery charge. Needless to say, this is killing my battery. Is this a sine wave problem (dirty or square) or could it be related to the outlet plug issue discussed here so well? By the way, I've enquired at my local Kragen's and they are to receive the new Champion generators with the 30 amp RV plug shortly. Thanks


The Champion is rated at 76db whereas the Elim is 67db. The Champion is indeed too loud for campgrounds or camping within 50 to 100 yards from anything other than trees! Believe me I know, I have boondocked with my Champion a few hundred times in the last year. (reliable generator though). Back to your question about my RV converter, it is a Triad-Utrad model TU 570-2. I'm not sure of its output amperage as I have no listing/description of it in my Vogue manual. I can probably find out though if it is critical.

I measured my battery voltage at the battery with my inexpensive digital voltmeter (GB Instruments GDT-11) and with coach gen running it is 13.4+ and with the Champion only 12.3. Even though all 120 volt systems are powered in the coach the lights are noticeably dimmer, the battery voltage less, and the battery almost dead even after running the Champion for 6-8 hours. I need to fire up the coach gen to recharge my battery even after running the Champion for long periods.

I'm concerned that if I trade up to the newer RV friendly Champion am I going to continue with this big problem due to my converter's incompatibility with this generators output. I've had no other problems running other generators although I was not as alert to this type of problem previously.

[professor95]

So, I just purchased the "RV" edition of the Champion. It is very loud. Does anyone have any advice on how to muffle the sound? Do they make mufflers to attach to the existing one?

I have not heard a new Champion running, but I certainly was under the impression that they were using the same muffler and sound abatement system that other Chinese GX200 engine driven clones were using. This has been measured at 67dB at about 21 feet on a number of different gensets, which meets NPS standards. I have measured my ELM3000 and it meets this standard. The previous Champion used the same type engine and muffler system as my ELM3000(I hope the new one does as well).

I, and several others, have run some experiments on further reducing sound on these gennys. Based on those experiments, little if anything can be gained by adding another muffler. The majority of noise comes from the mechanical aspects of the engine and generator. To eliminate this noise, a method of baffling that breaks up sound waves and still allows air to continue to move across the engine and generator is needed. Several attempts have been made in this area, some apparently successful, others not. Do a key word search for postings dealing with enclosures and sound reduction on this forum.

Short of actually getting your hands on a sound level meter to post what readings your generator actually has, I can't really comment any further on what you have determined as very loud. The Champion should be noticeably quiter than other "commercial/industrial" generators and lawn equipment in its power class, but it will not be as quite as a Honda 3000, 2000 or Kippor 3000 which have sound deadening cabinets.