3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

More on the PepBoys All Power/Kipor 2000Tc:

Looking at the owner's manuals on the link just provided. Both schematics are "almost" identical with the same specs, other than the amount of fuel used (remember, the Tc has no economy mode or idle control - it runs at 4,500 rpm all the time. Thus, it will use more fuel on the "average").

I still find it interesting that Kipor calls the Tc model a Digital Converter and the Ti model a Digital Inverter. Guess that is where the c (converter) and i (inverter) designations come from. While not a precise rule, the term inverter is normally applied to a device that has a DC input and inverts it to an AC output - usually at a higher voltage. The term converter is interpreted to mean a device that changes AC input to a DC output - usually at a lower voltage.

I did look at one in PepBoys last week. The advertised AllPower definately is the CampMate 2000 Tc. The fine print on the label even identifies it as a Kipor. Also, all of the Tc advertisements avoid the words "SineMaster" which are used extensively with the Ti model.

Again, I seriously suspect from what I have seen and read that while both use a 3-phase delta wound alternator to create a high frequency AC signal that is fed to an "inverter", we will find the waveform that comes out of the Tc is very similar to the so called "modified sine wave" produced by conventional DC to AC inverters and the Ti will have a nice clean sine wave.

I really hope someone that owns one (or both) will put them on a scope so that we can find a conclusive answer to the question.

[thehoneybees]

We just got back from a 10 day camping trip in the colorado mountains.
Our Honey Motorhome with our new Champion 46540 Generator worked great. Tested it to see if the generator would run the heater/furnace, microwave and lights all at the same time, ran smooth,didn't even bog down when using these. A/C worked too with other items running no problems.

We camp in the back country (no frills campgrounds). Previous camper had left a 2 1/2 foot x 4 foot peice of thick plywood which we used to sit our generator on. Sheltered by the pine trees, and hubby made a tarp A-Frame over the generator that protected it from the rain.
Worked perfect. We will be using this setup again.

Several times hubby said glad you saw the ad at Checkers, and researched info about the generator before we purchased it.

First pull each time would start right up. Ran smooth.

Neighbor camper said all they could hear was a slight hummm from our campsite. Their generator was alot louder than our Champion 46540.
I went over by their site to hear our generator for myself from the distance. Pleased that our generator was not a loud nuisance to other back woods campers.

We're happy with the Champion 46540 it is RV ready, so we didn't have to go buy other plugs for it.


Happy Campers in Colorado!!

[MrWizard]

1. AVR - I think this unit does not come with a built in AVR, what aftermarket universal AVR can I buy and how do I wire it in?

NONE

if the unit is brushless with out an AVR unit there is nothing that can be done to that generator head

you would have to change the generator head.

i paid $329 + taxes for my RV ready champion, I don't think anybody has paid more than $379.

why spend $380 at home depot, if you where thinking about this one HOW big is the muffler, if it's not large, that thing is going to be noisy

[stockrex]

big hello to everyone from west michigan,

I was in the market for a Generator and while reading up on it at bobistheoilguy.com I found this thread.

thanks to the Prof and others for contributing to this thread, very informative.

I needed a unit to provide some sort of backup at home (snow/ice storms) and also use it in summer for camping, and after the wife oks a class c, for use with the class c (probably be a few years for that 😞 )

I decided on the champion unit
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=CPE&mfrpartnumber=C46540

and was searching for deals for the above unit,

while at homedepot to load up on the pennzoil motor oil on clearence I found a REFURB, Coleman, with a Subaru Robin engine,

orig price was $599, I used my 10% off coupon and got it for $380

I am still looking for the exact specs as the unit did not come with an owners manual 😞

my questions:

1. AVR - I think this unit does not come with a built in AVR, what aftermarket universal AVR can I buy and how do I wire it in?

2. Inline Fuel filter - I am going to install an inline fuel filter which most people recommended, any gotcha's or recommendations here?

3. Oil - the subaru engine manual says 10w30, there is oil in the unit now, I have no clue how long it was run, I am going to change it to 10w30 Pennzoil Patinum, is this OK to do? should I run dino for few hours more and then go for synthetic?

4. Hour Meter - I was Gander MT. and saw an add on tach/hour meter, but it was $30, ouch, is there a cheaper one out there?

5. Extension Cord, 4-pin to 3-pin adapter / connector, saw one at Mills Farm and Fleet, it was like $14, and 4 pin to 3 pin rv adapter, where can I get extension cord (4 pin twistlocking) and 3 pin adapter without having to pay hundreds of dollars for it.

6. I have not fired it up yet, any items to check or todo before I fire it up?

sorry for long first post and thanks for patience for reading.

[bwloans]

professor95

Well, just found out yesterday that a new unit will not be put in...according to the dealer, Fleetwood and Coleman(Airxcel) have determined that a hard-start kit needs to be installed. The say that Fleetwood does not order the A/C units with capacitors that will start A/C...I don't think this is the answer, but....

[MrWizard]

thank you, its downloading now, i'm going to read that. and i saved that link,

[Mike_R_]

You can download the owners manual HERE for the campingmate 2000Tc, and it does show that it has a inverter. My brotherinlaw has the 3500Tc and it looks just like my 3500Ti, but it wont power my Air.

[Rocky7184]

MrWizard wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
The Tc line of Kipor digital generators (red case) should not be compared with the Kipor Ti line (yellow case) or the Honda EU2000i. While similar and advertised as being "digital", the Tc's do not include the same inverter technology.


are you syaing this IS an inverter, BUT NOT the same quality output as honda

because i don't see how it 'could not be inverter' if it's going to run at 4500 RPM

I'm curious have you heard one run, because the website link you provided says 59 db full load

i like my champion and i need that 3500 watts ( portable welder )

but, many here ,would jump on a 59db inverter genset at $600

I finaly made it into pepboys yesterday

NO suitcase generator to check out, nobody had seen any or even heard about them, so I was unable to gather any info

Ok,i'm off tomorrow i'll run over there and get some info.I'm squeezed on time cause we're heading out sunday in the am for a week in PA.I'll make it a point to get some info on this honda lookalike.

[set]

I have been reading the r.v. net Tech Issues 3000W Chinese Gensets quite a bit & i have
the Champion 3500 with the 120/240 NEMA plug no. L14-30P my quesiton is i would like to change the L14-30P plug with a 220 plug for my welder & the middle set of receptacles with a R.V. type receptacle.My quesiton is why can't i just wire like my house, For the welder just remove L14-30P and replace with welder receptacle ( hot/ hot/ ground) removeing the neutral.

On the rv plug, hot/neutral/ground.


Thanks Scott

[hgarraway]

The Homier "4000" generator with he 6.5 hp engine is on sale all weekend in Hattiesburg MS at their road show at the National Guard Armory for $199.00. The little 1250 watt one is $99.99.

It's almost identical to my ELIM 3000 but blue instead of red.

[MrWizard]

MrWizard wrote:
The Tc line of Kipor digital generators (red case) should not be compared with the Kipor Ti line (yellow case) or the Honda EU2000i. While similar and advertised as being "digital", the Tc's do not include the same inverter technology.


are you syaing this IS an inverter, BUT NOT the same quality output as honda

because i don't see how it 'could not be inverter' if it's going to run at 4500 RPM

I'm curious have you heard one run, because the website link you provided says 59 db full load

i like my champion and i need that 3500 watts ( portable welder )

but, many here ,would jump on a 59db inverter genset at $600

I finaly made it into pepboys yesterday

NO suitcase generator to check out, nobody had seen any or even heard about them, so I was unable to gather any info

[bwloans]

I sincerely hope that they will replace the entire rooftop unit and not try to do just a compressor exchange. Unless your dealer is really, really good, opening the system to replace a compressor is an invitation for trouble latter on down the road (freon leaks, clogged line filters, blocked cap tubes, moisture infiltration, etc.)

Thanks for letting us know the dealer had to eat pie on this one - I hate it when they think they have all the answers and do not want to listen to the customer.

They said it should be a complete replacement of the rooftop unit...still waiting to hear from them. I am still upset that I actually got rid of my original Champion, non-RV ready, for the new one when it probably was not necessary and incurred more costs...

[professor95]

bwloans wrote:
Took it is Saturday...had them put it on their Honda 3000...didn't run the A/C...looks like they will be replacing compressor this week.
Also threw the Champion on a new trailer and fired up the 15k BTU A/C...no problem.

I sincerely hope that they will replace the entire rooftop unit and not try to do just a compressor exchange. Unless your dealer is really, really good, opening the system to replace a compressor is an invitation for trouble latter on down the road (freon leaks, clogged line filters, blocked cap tubes, moisture infiltration, etc.)

Thanks for letting us know the dealer had to eat pie on this one - I hate it when they think they have all the answers and do not want to listen to the customer.

[bwloans]

professor95 wrote:

bwloans wrote:
Thanks professor for the reply...called the dealer this AM, explained situation..set appt to take in this week....they still are trying to tell me that the only good luck they have had is with Honda gens and that the A/C can pull up to 3 times its running amps during start-up...if it runs at 14.6 then 3x is 43+ amps...that would most likely trip a 30 amp service would it not?

They are correct in saying that the AC can pull up to 3x the running current when starting. This is true of all reactive loads. A 30 amp breaker should hold a surge load of 43+ amps without tripping.

With gasoline generators and RV air conditioners the problem is not really the 3x starting current surge that may be required. The problem is how long the surge lasts. In theory, a code L electric motor should be able to get itself going in 1/3 second or less. This amounts to about 20 full cycles of AC current. Unfortunately, some motors require a longer period of time to get up and running. From the description you have given, I feel that is your problem.

Generally we can overcome this initial power surge and the time required by adding capacitance to the motor's initial inductive reactance. Without going into all the theory of how it works, lets just say the capacitor will store some power and then release it rapidly to give the motor a good push at the beginning. If you want to know more about all the operational theory you can read more about it here.

Of interest is the following posting made on this forum a few weeks ago:

ELKING wrote:
First off Thanks to everyone on this great forum for tier help! I just want to follow up on the problems I thought I was having with my Chinese genset.(4000W 'Contractor Line' from Homier) The only problem with the genset was the idle speed governer was set to low (only putting out 108-109 volts at idle). I adjusted it and now it puts out 120v-123v at idle. The a/c on my new Prowler 5th wheel did not come from the factory with any start capacitor or start relay whatsoever! The electrical diagram showed it as being optional equipment and the manufacture saved the almighty dollar by not installing it! My advise to anyone having a/c-generator problems - check to make sure your a/c unit is equipped with a start capacitor! I installed the Supco SPP6E capacitor and relay in my a/c unit and it starts and runs on generator power with no problems. Before it would trip the breaker almost instantly! Again thanks for the great information available on this forum!

Now, this was a NEW RV air conditioner. The start capacitor and relay were not installed. This makes me wonder if this is an isolated problem, or one that is becoming more common? In any event, the problem was not with the generator.

Your dealer needs to take a really close look at both the start current and the length of time the surge current is present. Unfortunately, I doubt that they will have any test/recording instruments to make such readings.

I would also suggest sharing some of the postings from this forum that attest to successfully operating an RV air conditioner from one of these Chinese generators. Hopefully, the dealer will be open minded enough to realize that if literally "hundreds" are successfully operating off of these generators that something is wrong with your unit. Again, my RV has a Coleman 15,000 BTU unit that powers up easily in 100 degree weather from a PowerPro, ELM3000, and Champion. It has nothing to do with luck....

For more info on starting capacitors and relays look here:

http://www.supco.com/eclass.htm

http://arnoldservice.com/compressor_hard_start_boosters.htm

Please let us know the outcome after you visit your dealer again.

Took it is Saturday...had them put it on their Honda 3000...didn't run the A/C...looks like they will be replacing compressor this week.
Also threw the Champion on a new trailer and fired up the 15k BTU A/C...no problem.

[marksman69]

professor95 wrote:

marksman69 wrote:
am a large electrical contractor and actually I have been using what we call "cad weld",

I did not know that existed nor did I know that the NEC had been revised to allow such. Unless I have missed something else new, I believe conventional soldering of grounding connectors is still taboo (risk of cold solder joints). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for the update.

Here is a link to the product.
http://www.erico.com/cadweldCatalog/Cadweld/ConnectionFamily.asp

i never knew they made other solutions besides the ground rod welds. I found the site interesting.