3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[WaltinColo]

Whelp... i finally did it...
After researching this topic for almost a year, i finally bought a generator!
So i am now the proud owner of a Champion 3500 watt (C46540), RV ready, generator! 🙂

Its my birthday present! 🙂

Just picked it up from Checker Auto for the sale price of $299! Dang, thats tough to beat!
Its now sitting in the back of the car in the box.... Cant wait to fire this sucker up n test it!

Ill be adding the wheel kit, and then begin working on a 'quiet box' of some sort down the road in prep for next spring when camping begins once again!!

I want to thank everyone for all the Awesome info in this thread and a special thanks to the Professor! You are da man! 🙂

Come on Camping Season!
Walt

[professor95]

I received this via private e-mail. Thought it was a pretty neat idea!

Dr. Agee,
I have ben following this thread as a lurker for almost a year. I have a Champ RV generator. I recently saw a med size plastic dog house at Big Lots. It is 2 pieces and snaps together. I put it in the back of my TV and fill it with camping stuff so it does not take up any extra room. At the camp I put the generator in the bottom part of the dog house and then crank it up. I them put on the top. Makes it really quiter.

[mbb]

professor95 wrote:

mbb wrote:

I called their tech service and talked to someone who said that it is possible to use xs oil during break in because the rings havent seated yet. He repeatedly dodged the question of whether or not it was normal, but said it was possible. He gave me the number of the local fix-it repair place.

Since then ,I ran it for about 3 more hrs and it used oil from the top of the fill hole to near the bottom of the threads. I will run it several more hrs before I call again. Theres nothing the warranty place can do really.


Next time you call, ask for Paul Cole. Be sure to let him know that you are on this forum. The fix-it-shop will evaluate the engine and if it is defective, Paul will arrange for a new engine to be sent to the fix-it-shop or replace the unit. He has done this for the few problems that have occured in the past and I am confident he will follow through again.

For an engine to use that much oil, you should have a black, wet spark plug. What does yours look like? I would also imagine that there is considerable white/blue smoke from the exhaust.

I received an e-mail from Paul Cole at Champion Power Products this morning. He had been e-mailed your posting by another forum member. I hope by now you have called him. If not, he is aware of your problem and is hoping you will call him so that the issues can be resolved.

No, never any smoke. Oil consumption seems to have tapered off, I have about 40 hrs now with no problems. To summarize:

1st 5 hrs - used enough to cause low oil shutoff
next 3 hrs (8 total) - top of fill hole to bottom of threads
next 10 hrs (18 total) - about top of fill hole to slightly below bottom of threads
next 22 hrs ( 40 total) - about mid to upper fill hole to about bottom of threads.

For a non-inverter its pretty stingy with gas, I can run my AC in my TT (11000 btu) and refrig all night(10 hrs or so) on ~3 gallons. The AC probably cycles 1/2 the time. The box I made really quiets it down (as long as your not on the open backside which points into the woods toward a neighboring property.

So far Im very satisfied. Always starts on the first pull, very quiet with the box around it, great price/fast delivery, 4000 surge watts, economical on gas, only 100 lbs. Cheap enough to leave at the hunting camp (chained up of course) and not worry about losing it. For my use, I dont think there was a better choice.

[Oldfordman]

cdre wrote:
Glad I managed to pick it up. Now.... I am going to go ahead and rewire the head for full amperage output. I am going to be running a short conventional extension cord (12ga) from my regular TT cable to my gen, so I am not worried about the lack of "RV readiness." One concern I do have, however, is ensuring the socket I hook in to on the gen is rated at a high enough amperage to handle an A/C. I assume I will need to install a different socket and breaker to make this happen. Any suggestions on sources of the required components?

edit: Thinking I will just remove the 240V outlet and replace it with a higher quality conventional outlet.

Use a regular RV 30 amp outlet. Usually, each set of windings on the generator will have it's own breaker. My RV ready Champion has two 15 amp circuit breakers. When you re-wire, the windings will be in parallel and the output of each winding will be "fused" for 15 (or possibly one at 15 and one at 20) amps. Should one breaker trip, the other will immediately trip when in parallel so I see no need to change the C/Bs. Essentially, the RV ready generator just has the 120/240 volt switch that runs the generator with the windings in series for 240 @15 amps or parallel for 30 amps @29.2 amps. The switch also moves the outputs to the appropriate recepticals.

[PNW_roamer]

The Champion 4450 Peak Power Generator (Model #C46535) is now on sale at Schucks Auto Stores for 33% off the normal price of $349.00. That means a final price before sales tax of $233.83

Sale Dates are October 29th 2006 thru November 25th 2006.

NOTE: They have the model #C46540 at their online store (schucks.com)

[cdre]

Glad I managed to pick it up. Now.... I am going to go ahead and rewire the head for full amperage output. I am going to be running a short conventional extension cord (12ga) from my regular TT cable to my gen, so I am not worried about the lack of "RV readiness." One concern I do have, however, is ensuring the socket I hook in to on the gen is rated at a high enough amperage to handle an A/C. I assume I will need to install a different socket and breaker to make this happen. Any suggestions on sources of the required components?

edit: Thinking I will just remove the 240V outlet and replace it with a higher quality conventional outlet.

[professor95]

cdre wrote:
The 46535 (non-RV plug Champion) is being advertised as refurb at my local store for $99. An amazing price! Before I get ahead of myself, I wanted to ensure the voltage regulator and such that makes the 40 so good are also on the 35. Also, I assume I can re-wire this to provide maximum amperage through the regular plugs?

Thanks for the help... this thread is almost as good as the generators discussed here.

The the xx35 model uses the same AVR as the xx40 model.

It is easy to rewire for full amperage output.

That is one HECK of a good price!

[parrothead71]

I'm ready to buy and have been looking around for the Champion 3500 watt with the RV plug. Has anyone been able to find one in the Upstate NY area. The ft Drum area to be specific. I'd be willing to travel to Syracuse if I knew that someone would have it in stock. I would like to buy it within the next couple of days before the weekend. Thx

[cdre]

The 46535 (non-RV plug Champion) is being advertised as refurb at my local store for $99. An amazing price! Before I get ahead of myself, I wanted to ensure the voltage regulator and such that makes the 40 so good are also on the 35. Also, I assume I can re-wire this to provide maximum amperage through the regular plugs?

Thanks for the help... this thread is almost as good as the generators discussed here.

edit: Picked mine up this morning... for those in Phoenix, its the store on 43rd Ave and Olive (actually Glendale).

[professor95]

I have received an e-mail notification that the CSK autogroup dropped it's price on the Champ RV model to $299.00 over the weekend. There is a very good possibility the price will remain at that level for a week or two. Seems that the lack of major hurricanes this season may have contributed to some excess inventories. Now, that is a nice Christmas present! (Reduced prices and hurricanes all in one).

[professor95]

tpi wrote:
However in my case, the Kipor actually runs the electrical loads better. The big heavy flywheel effect starts the AC without a blink. The diesel engine has no ignition noise and this generator is much cleaner running television in fringe areas. It is absolutely superior running AM radio. The Yamaha puts a whistle in any AM radio nearby the generator, or any radio in the trailer

Not too surprising. AM (Amplitude Modulation) is very susceptible to noise interference. Analog television uses AM for the picture (actually vestigial modulation - a form of amplitude modulation) and FM (frequency modulation) for the aural component. It doesn't take much to cause picture interference in an RV since the small dipole (batwing) antennas often used have an extremely powerful signal amplifier. These RF amplifiers do not discriminate between unwanted noise and the actual signal very well. A major source of noise (video interference) in RV's can be traced to vent fan motors, spark igniters for the frig, water heater and furnace, and the AC to DC converter. All are devices that produce a "spark". Remember, early radio transmitters were spark-gap devices! Diesel generators have no spark plugs and thus may eliminate spark source noise. Gas engine generators (even cheap ones) do not usually cause noise on the picture of a TV signal which ranges from 49 MHz to over 800 MHz. But AM radio that is between .540 MHz and 1.6 MHz is very likely to pick up generator noise.

If AM radio is your thing and you must have a generator running while listening to your AM radio you can often reduce or eliminate the interference completely by bonding all external metal components and using a good earth ground. Bonded add-on shielding, resistor plugs and/or carbon core ignition wire can also help. BTW, bonding the metal shell of the cheap DC motors used in RV rooftop and stove vents to ground can also reduce noise from those devices as well.

Ferrite donuts and rods can also be effectively used to reduce interference on and from power cords to such devices. Radio Shack sells (or sold - many stores are discontinuing small parts)an assortment of ferrite cores, even some than snap on, for interference reduction.

Bottom line: Before spending an additional $1,000 plus for a generator that might produce less EMI and RFI, try some of the inexpensive steps I suggested above.

[mcmurphrjk]

You are still limited to only 20 amps through the breaker. I paralleled both breakers on mine and wired it all to an rv outlet. I have 30 amps available at the rv plug I installed, (or use a 30 amp twist lock plug)and rated amperage at the duplex plugs. My 12 volt also works, as oes my meter.
There are directions for the panel re-wiring necessary to accomplish this posted elsewhere in this thread.

[sleepywheel]

I finally got around to playing with my Champion non-RV plu generator. I found that the colour coded wiring in the generator did not match the US spec Champion, at least colourwise. It's all wired the same but Champion decided to use some different coloured wires. After tracing all the wiring, I figured out how to wire the coils in parallel.

After rewiring the generator head, I had power to only one of the 20 amp breakers and to one of the duplex receptacles, which was all I wanted. So theoretically I would have full power to the breaker and 20 amps to the duplex receptacle. It would not run my mig welder. Even at low settings, the generator would surge a few times and pop the breaker. I couldn't even get a bead going.

Next, I plugged the welder into my Honda EU2000 and was able to get a bead going though after getting an inch long bead, the overload light would come on and shut down the power.

So now I'm a little disappointed with the performance of the Champion. I may be asking too much from it but it should do better than the Honda, shouldn't it? MrWizard reported that he was able to run his welder from his RV ready unit. Any suggestions?

[toprudder]

tpi wrote:
However in my case, the Kipor actually runs the electrical loads better. The big heavy flywheel effect starts the AC without a blink. The diesel engine has no ignition noise and this generator is much cleaner running television in fringe areas. It is absolutely superior running AM radio. The Yamaha puts a whistle in any AM radio nearby the generator, or any radio in the trailer.

There is more to this than whether the sine wave has 1% distortion or 4% distortion. I like the Yamaha very much- but its best qualities are reliability and quietness.

That is a good point. The distortion of the sine wave is called "conducted" emissions. This is what you can see and measure with a good o'scope connected to the AC output. The ignition noise is called "radiated" emissions, that can best be measured by a spectrum analyzer connected to an antenna. Sometimes there is overlap between the two, such that the ignition noise might couple onto the ac wiring, or the noise from the generator head might radiate out of the ac wiring.

I have a similar problem with the converter in my camper. It will cause some hashing noise on the lower TV channels. I can mitigate it to some extent by positioning the antenna. However, it is far less interference than a simple DC fan that I have.

Bob R.

[tpi]

professor95 wrote:

Thom,

The myth that you need a perfect sine wave to power a laptop computer has circulated for years. It is untrue.

Laptop computers have built-in battery packs that are recharged/powered from switching power supplies designed to be used over a very broad voltage and frequency range. They work extremely well with conventional generators and modified sine wave battery powered inverters.

The Champion and PowerPro generators are direct drive alternators providing single phase 120 volts at 60 Hz from a moving rotor and stationary stator. The period and shape of the AC waveform is consistent with the engine speed and load. These types of generators introduce EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference) that superimposes itself on top of the sine wave. A combination of the EMI and varying period of the sine wave in a direct drive generator is often refereed to as THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) in technical literature provided by manufacturers. The Champion unit produces less that 4% THD at 80% load, which is pretty darn good. Some of the other units, especially those that use capacitor voltage regulators, have THD levels as high as 10%.

Through the process of discovery, we have learned on this forum that problems with RV appliances from the EMI produced in these units is far and few between. Some microwave ovens have acted erratically and some older feroresonate power converters produced low voltage. These were rare occurrences and only impacted a very small percentage of owners. Overall, direct drive alternators have given excellent service to hundreds of thousands of RVers.

Your question about inverter or converter units most likely comes from someone who is repeating yet another myth without the technical knowledge to support the statements.

An inverter unit, like the Honda EU2000i , uses a gas engine to drive a three phase, high frequency alternator that produces a wide variation of voltage levels dependent upon engine speed. The power from this alternator cannot be used "as is" by regular appliances. Thus, the power is fed into electronic switching circuitry, with computer like functions, that changes it to a sine wave with the appropriate phase, frequency and voltage to power conventional appliances.

There is no argument that the inverter/converter units provide "cleaner" and better regulated power when compared to the conventional direct drive generator. The inverter units are also traditionally quiter since they can lower engine speed for small power loads and still maintain a constant voltage and frequency. Unfortunately, these units can cost up to 4x (and above) more money (example: 3,000 watt conventional Champion for $400. Honda EU3000is for $1,800).

In the portable generator industry, inverter and converter are often considered to mean the same thing. In other areas of the electronic industry, an inverter is a device that takes a lower DC voltage and increases it to a higher AC voltage. A converter takes a higher AC voltage and reduces it to a lower DC voltage.

Bottom line:

If you are a wealthy individual who uses the generator frequently in crowded environments where other campers demand solitude, get the inverter unit.

If you are a budget conscious individual who uses the generator occasionally in environments where a little extra noise is acceptable, you will be very happy with the Champion or PowerPro. Personally, I prefer Champion for their excellent tech support, rock solid warranty and RV ready presentation.

Sorry about the long quote but the post was too good to edit. I have a Yamaha 3000 w/boost and Kipor enclosed diesel direct drive generators. The Yamaha is very well regulated-the voltage holds rock steady until it is loaded to the point of overload. I'm sure the output on a scope would be a near perfect sine wave. The variable speed engine contributes greatly to the quiet running of the generator.

However in my case, the Kipor actually runs the electrical loads better. The big heavy flywheel effect starts the AC without a blink. The diesel engine has no ignition noise and this generator is much cleaner running television in fringe areas. It is absolutely superior running AM radio. The Yamaha puts a whistle in any AM radio nearby the generator, or any radio in the trailer.

There is more to this than whether the sine wave has 1% distortion or 4% distortion. I like the Yamaha very much- but its best qualities are reliability and quietness.