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3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy


For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โ€œcloningโ€ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โ€œrunningโ€ display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โ€œSupposedlyโ€ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โ€œabove average qualityโ€ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โ€œavailability listingโ€.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ€“ most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โ€œreasonablyโ€ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โ€œlook alikeโ€ eng...






















Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.
10,029 REPLIES 10,029

Wuttevr
Explorer
Explorer
Wgeorge11 wrote:
Stop beating the dead horse ... again. It doesn't matter what Gen you have or how much it costs so long as it does the job reliably and without disturbing your neighbors too much. We're here to discuss ways of making these little Chinese clones more user friendly; to recognize their strengths and limits, and free ourselves from shore power so we can hang out in the boondocks.


JMHO, but the proverbial horse is not yet dead; at least in my mind. Besides, I don't think that list is necessarily all-inclusive. Reinforcing (or rationalizing, in some cases) our decisions to purchase cheaper Chinese gens over their the more expensive counterparts is vital to ward off cognitive dissonance, as well as help others decide between the two; both valuable contributions to the thread.

And frankly, hearing other people's real-life examples of the champ being as quiet as $2,000 of Japanese hardware is as helpful as it gets. Especially when we get the all-to-familiar Honda flamer pay us a visit.

Peace out.
No more

racefan1965
Explorer
Explorer
Wgeorge11 wrote:
Stop beating the dead horse ... again. It doesn't matter what Gen you have or how much it costs so long as it does the job reliably and without disturbing your neighbors too much. We're here to discuss ways of making these little Chinese clones more user friendly; to recognize their strengths and limits, and free ourselves from shore power so we can hang out in the boondocks.


OH! Sorry for saying what I felt about these chinese generators. I didn't realize we had a private police force other than staff dictating what could or couldn't be posted. I'll try and stay on topic more often sir and will definately avoid straying again...Thank you for the slap on the wrist. :R

Back on topic...I did prop up boards around my champion while we were camping at Infineon raceway this last weekend. Not because they were needed but more because I thought it might appease those that see any open frame generator as a contractor grade model. Before we had left I had tried to build a box to surround the four outer walls of the generator to see if it made any difference and it was so little of a difference that I ended up scrapping the idea. My question is this...In your opinion...if I had added something like insulation to the inside of the wooden box would it have made any better of a difference? If so, would regular house wall insulation work or is there something better but still affordable to use?
Than you all for your kindness, understanding and most of all, help.

Rick
Rick, Shirley, 3 dogs(Shasta, Baylee & Macy)
2003 Ford 250 Superduty 4x4LB 6.0 Diesel
1999 Dodge 2500 Quad Cab 4X4 gasser
1993 Hitchhiker ll 28.5 SRLUG
2006 Champion C46540 RV plug ready genset
2009 Honeywell 2000i inverter genset

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
the tone on the champion changes to a deeper tone , with only a slight volume change when running under a heavy load vs light to no load, mine is only under NO load before i plug it in.

the honda inverter with A/C load and no econo throttle at near 5000 RPM is running over 40% faster than the champion, the sound is more akin to the pitch of a motorcycle engine though NOT the volume of the street bike.
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

Oldfordman
Explorer
Explorer
BORoarke wrote:
What a great generator! So glad I found this thread when I did, I was about to spend a few grand on two Honda 2000EU's units so I could run my A/C. Yes, the Honda's are quieter when they are in eco-mode but eco-mode aint going to run the a/c and microwave and that was the sole purpose of us buying a generator, to run our a/c and MW. So for all the EU owners that knock us for buying a "loud" generator, please stop harassing us to make yourselves feel better about spending 7x the money on your generators than us Chinese gen owners spent. I am very happy and would recommend anyone looking for a generator to run their RV a/c to consider the C46540 before spending thousands on the Hondas and Yamahas.





That about sums it up.
Life is full of choices. I choose to have fun!:)

Wgeorge11
Explorer
Explorer
Stop beating the dead horse ... again. It doesn't matter what Gen you have or how much it costs so long as it does the job reliably and without disturbing your neighbors too much. We're here to discuss ways of making these little Chinese clones more user friendly; to recognize their strengths and limits, and free ourselves from shore power so we can hang out in the boondocks.
Traveling companion

racefan1965
Explorer
Explorer
I've said it before and I'll say it again. One day these little 3000 to 4000 watt chinese generators are going to out number the super expensive inverter gen sets. Even some of the local RV dealers here in Redding are starting to carry and sell them. (champion brand at Redding RV) More and more people are realizing that this eco mode hype isn't true if your running a load like a AC or MW which is what 90% of us generator users buy them for to begin with. Wasteing 2 grand to buy something that doesn't do anything more than a what a $300.00 model does seems to be a waste of money and more of status-quo rather than good sense IMO.

Rick
Rick, Shirley, 3 dogs(Shasta, Baylee & Macy)
2003 Ford 250 Superduty 4x4LB 6.0 Diesel
1999 Dodge 2500 Quad Cab 4X4 gasser
1993 Hitchhiker ll 28.5 SRLUG
2006 Champion C46540 RV plug ready genset
2009 Honeywell 2000i inverter genset

BORoarke
Explorer
Explorer
I should have posted that in my previous post, the tone between the two EU's and the Champion was different sounding but the Champion still sounded quieter and was less offensive. The difference in loudness wasn't night and day but it WAS enough for me to be certain that paying $2000 for an invertor type generator to run your a/c and expecting it to be a lot quieter is wasted money since it wont be all that quiet when running at full bore, which it would have to do in order to run the a/c. Again, I am very pleased with the Champion and can't wait to finally camp with A/C!!
2007 Wildwood 26TBSS
Prodigy Brake Controller & Equal-i-zer.
Champion C46540

Bryan - Me
Crystal - Wife
Harley - Daughter
Maverick - Son
Jett - Son

Wuttevr
Explorer
Explorer
Wayne Dohnal wrote:
I never heard one personally but I'm surprised that the Champion emits the same noise with or without a load. When the load goes up on the eu2000i the exhaust noise increases significantly even if there is little or no RPM increase from an added load. For instance, with ECO off the eu2000i runs at 4300 RPM with no load, and at maximum load the RPMs approach 5000. When going from no load to max load the engine speed increases only a few hundred RPM but the exhaust noise goes way, way up.


I can't say for certain whether or not it is louder under load. However, the sound is different. I would bet it would look vastly different under a spectrum analyzer. But I bet one of our many champ owners with a db meter could settle the debate pronto.

Along the same lines, the side-by-side comparison between the 2 Hondas and the champ isn't necessarily objective, as I assume they sound very different from each other. Conceivably, one could sound quieter, but actually produce a higher SPL level due to the frequency of the noise.

Regardless, I too was flabergasted, almost devastated when I heard an EU last weekend with the Eco-Throttle off. I was hoping that one day I would have the disposable income to become an owner of one. Now I am no longer convinced that they are significantly quieter. I am wondering if their 59 db rating isn't with the Eco on? I will have to take a second look at their literature.

Same old debate. Only now, I have witnessed it.
No more

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
2003summit

going by what you posted and the pictures , NO 120-240 switch.

this generator is hardwired as 240 and center tapped and the neutral bonded to frame..

you are correct there is no way to change this to 120 only with out opening the genny head, removing the connection between the windings.
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
yes, because it's consuming a lot more fuel for the added load..

the champion and other non-inverter gensets run at the same 3600 RPM all the time,

if all you want to do is idle along charging batteries, a small inverter charger is the quietest thing available.. but if you are actually going to use larger amounts of power for the A/C then the quiet factor essentially dis-appears, negating the dollar value of low db's because its gone..
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

Wayne_Dohnal
Explorer
Explorer
I never heard one personally but I'm surprised that the Champion emits the same noise with or without a load. When the load goes up on the eu2000i the exhaust noise increases significantly even if there is little or no RPM increase from an added load. For instance, with ECO off the eu2000i runs at 4300 RPM with no load, and at maximum load the RPMs approach 5000. When going from no load to max load the engine speed increases only a few hundred RPM but the exhaust noise goes way, way up.
2009 Fleetwood Icon 24A
Honda Fit dinghy with US Gear brake system
LinkPro battery monitor - EU2000i generator

BORoarke
Explorer
Explorer
Just ran my C46540 after doing the fan/flywheel mod and yes, there is a big difference in the noise. I don't have any fancy sound meters to test it with but to me, it sounded significantly quieter. It's noise isn't so "mechanical" anymore. I'd recommend this to anyone. Only cost me about $5 for the RTV and about 10 mins from start to finish.

My brother, who happens to live across the street from us had their toy hauler parked out front, getting it ready for the 4th of July trip. They have an onboard onan genny but they also have two of the Honda 2000EU units from their previous trailer. We decided to do a little test. We carried the Champion over to his trailer and he brought out his two Honda 2000EU's hooked together. He connected his trailer plug to the Honda's and cranked on his A/C. I then started the Champ and we let the two of them run side by side. My Champ didn't have any load on it (but that doesn't matter since its just as loud with or without a load). We walked back over to my house, turned around and stood there for some time to listen. By this time, we had a few of the neighbors coming out to see what all the racket was (We live on a quiet street where all the homes are two story homes so the noise these generators were putting out sounded louder than normal since the sound was bouncing off all the hard surfaces.)
Anyway, so now he have 7 guys standing in my front yard listening to our generators across the street. We asked them to listen and see which one they thought was quieter. I walked over and turned off my Champion and let just the two Hondas run for a bit. I then started up the Champion again and then turned off the Honda's and just let the Champion run for a few moments. We went through this sequence two times and when we were done 6 out of us 7 said the Champion seemed quieter. I am sure you can guess who the 1 out of 7 was that thought the Honda's were quieter, yes it was my brother who owns the Honda's and paid $2K for them. I'm sure it was just a matter of pride.

What a great generator! So glad I found this thread when I did, I was about to spend a few grand on two Honda 2000EU's units so I could run my A/C. Yes, the Honda's are quieter when they are in eco-mode but eco-mode aint going to run the a/c and microwave and that was the sole purpose of us buying a generator, to run our a/c and MW. So for all the EU owners that knock us for buying a "loud" generator, please stop harassing us to make yourselves feel better about spending 7x the money on your generators than us Chinese gen owners spent. I am very happy and would recommend anyone looking for a generator to run their RV a/c to consider the C46540 before spending thousands on the Hondas and Yamahas.
2007 Wildwood 26TBSS
Prodigy Brake Controller & Equal-i-zer.
Champion C46540

Bryan - Me
Crystal - Wife
Harley - Daughter
Maverick - Son
Jett - Son

2003Summit
Explorer
Explorer
After reading all the wonderful, informative info on this thread I went out and confidently bought a 2800/4000W Champion from my local Costco Canada; having researched it carefully on this form. It seams to be the same one as I see in all of your pictures.

I was excited about re-wiring for maximum output on 120VAC but I think I have run into a major stumbling block. I don't think this unit can be re-wired. I will start from the beginning, hopefully someone has run in to this and has a work around. If not, then the Canadian versions are defiantly different and not possible to re-wire.

I took the cover off the generator head. The first thing I noticed was that neutral was bonded to ground inside the head with a short jumper wire โ€“ this was expected from the other posts and the sicker on the frame โ€œie. Warning: neutral bonded to frameโ€. I removed it, an ohm meter test confirmed no more link to ground.

Now, the coloring of the wires is a bit different from most of the posts. I have a red, black, and white wire going to the panel. That makes sense. My coil wires are as follows: red; blue; blue; black. The red coil wire is on a binding post with the red wire going to the panel, both blue coil wires are on the same binding post along with the white which goes to the panel, and the black coil wire on a post with the black to the panel. I also noted the red and black wire go together into one sleeve, and the two blues go together into another sleeve as they go into the windings. Because my wiring colors are different than the posts I have seen, I decided to do some careful testing to make sure I knew what was what.

I separated out (isolated) all four coil wires, one on each of the four binding posts and disconnected the panel wires completely for testing. I then measured resistance with a high quality digital multi meter. I got the following: Red to blue: 1 ohm, blue to blue: Zero ohm, blue to red: 1 ohm, red to black: 2 ohm. Iโ€™m already worried. From every post and schematic I have seen there should be no connection between the two coils. But I have very low resistance measured between each and every coil wire! Not good.

Well, hoping this could not be true I decided to start the gen up and place a moderate load on the various wires while measuring the voltage. If the coils where indeed separate, there shouldnโ€™t be any way to support a load by connecting to only one pole of each coil and no way to get 220 without the coils linked. So I hooked up a 3A 120VAC sander (my test load) along with my DMM to measure voltage with two test leads. I can support the 3A load from red to *either* blue, and black to *either* blue. Meter shows 120V, sander starts strong and runs strong, the gen engine makes the same small grunt on each connection. I also briefly tested the sander from black to red, 220V, sander runs way too fast, gen makes a much bigger grunt. I get no sander operation on blue to blue. All of this was done with each of the four coil wires isolated from one-another.

This is not good, blue and blue seam obviously wired together โ€œinsideโ€ the coil windings. Both my resistance test and load tests support this. This seams to indicate either a single coil with a center tap or the coils are connected in series somewhere *in* the windings. I looked very closely and I can see no way to change this with out splitting the gen open and re-wiring the actual windings โ€“ probably not a worth while project if even possible. I decided I should post on here and see if anyone has any ideas before I get too depressed about it; and if this all ends up being true to warn others about the Canadian version that Costco sells or maybe the Canadian verion peroid.

Here are some pics:

The gen:


Before re-wiring (note, ignore the loose brown wire, I was adding this wire to link up the panel, it is not stock):


The way it was when I was conducting my tests. Pannel wires are removed for testing, each of the four coil wires are issolated, that is they are each sitting alone on each of the four binding posts.



If you need any more info, please ask.

Hopefully someone has a work around or idea on this. If anyone else has a Canadian verision and wouldn't mind checking this; it could be usefull.

Thank you to all the tireless people that read and post on this thread.

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
neutral on these generators is NOT bonded to grd, and that is the way it is supposed to be ,'NOT bonded" is corect

voltage is 120 across the duplex , NOT 120 to hot & grd.

yes take the (2) wires from the duplex to the RV outlet, use 10ga or 12 ga wire, 10 ga is 30 amp, 12 ga is 20 amp, but for the few inches needed and the 25 amp max load of the generator you can use 12ga

your drawing is correct

do not worry about the neutral , DO NOT bond to to the generator frame, the genny frame is NOT a true ground unless you drive a grd rod 10ft into the earth and bond the frame to it.

people mix up the terms frame & ggrd, and neutral and grd all the time

the generator is NOT the utility company and the generator is not bonded to earth like the utility company power

there are several other threads devoted to that topic
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

jpkiljan
Explorer
Explorer
CCTAU wrote:
MrWizard wrote:


OK. New scenario. Say I just wanted to install a 30 amp plug in a box onto the side of my generator. As long as I use big enough wires, can I just use the following diagram and hook up a new outlet? this way the genny stays the same and I get a new outlet. I know that I will need to run the genny in 240 mode, but I'll only be using 120.


NO don't do it that way, don't run in 220 mode, that will split the windings and give you have POWER/amps on the outlet because you will only be using ONE winding

jumper the wires from the duplex connections to the new RV outlet and leave it in the 120 mode, you will get the full 25 amps.

you can remove the 220 outlet, capp the wires( do not use them ) replace with the RV outlet, and jumper the wires from the duplex to the new outlet


I have a metal bolt on box and receptacle. now when you say jump from the duplex, do you mean( according to the photo) the red wire to one plug. The blue to the other. Then ground to ground. Does this mean that one of the hot wires act as a neutral?


Almost. There is only one 'hot' wire on the 120-volt duplex socket and the RV socket. Here is an image of a sketch of how I think the wiring should go (no guarantees):
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jpkiljan/detail_hires?.dir=8319re2&.dnm=e860re2.jpg



Another worrying oddity with the PP3500D is that the 'hot' connector may not be hot at all. There appears to be no connection between the neutral and the generator's ground. Neither my ohm-meter nor the schematic show a connection. Perhaps all portable generators sold in the US are this way--I really don't know.

I guess I'm okay with that as long as the neutral and ground are connected somewhere inside the RV--preferably near the ground rod. But how many RV'ers actually drive a ground rod outside their setup when camping without hookups? In other words, your 'hot' may not be hot with respect to an earth ground, or perhaps not even to your vehicle's chassis. The bottom line is that there may be no current available to open a circuit breaker if a short develops somewhere on the hot lead. The neutral and ground are supposed to be connected at the main circuit box when using shore power, and at least that setup seems safe enough to me.

My PowerPro's instruction manual stresses how important it is to hook a ground lead to the generator's grounding terminal. The importers probably paid their attorneys a lot to write all that safety stuff for them and I do try to pay attention. But, I really can't see how a generator ground does a bit of good without a connection between the neutral and the generator's chassis ground at least somewhere in the circuit.

--John (who is most definitely NOT an electrician)