3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

To all,

This thought and I'm going to smell the roses. I have no comment on the GFCI issue other than to say, thank you professor95 (Doctor) for showing the posted picture of the GFIC used with your TT in the circuit hookup. This may be a SAVIOR of many lives. I don't have clue about all these tech issues, that is not my field. But this is all so interesting, the dialog of men of higher learning.

[bobandcat]

professor95 wrote:
toprudder (and others),

Now that we seem to have established the need and purpose for GFCIs, both with and without portable genset connections, why don't we move on to the newest device, Arc Fault Circuit Interruption.

I don't have any of these, but have considered doing some retrofitting both in my home and the RV.

I thought that the following was interesting:

How is an AFCI different from a GFCI?
Although the AFCI and GFCI may look very similar, their purpose is quite different. AFCIs are designed to address the hazards that result from arcing, while GFCIs (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters) are designed to address shock hazards and are intended for the protection of personnel.

[professor95]

toprudder (and others),

Now that we seem to have established the need and purpose for GFCIs, both with and without portable genset connections, why don't we move on to the newest device, Arc Fault Circuit Interruption.

I don't have any of these, but have considered doing some retrofitting both in my home and the RV.

[professor95]

bobandcat wrote:
Regarding my 2nd question, for the rewired 46535's and production 46540's when the circuit breakers open and the generator defaults to 240 volts, is there any danger to the appliances that are plugged into the generator??

My first knee jerk answer is no, there should be no danger. Still, there is something about the voltage lurking there that bothers me. On my unit, I would prefer to see the absence of voltage on all outlets.

bobandcat wrote:
Finally, if I install a SPST in the excitation winding circuit, what amperage capacity should it be?
If this is done, is there any reason to have the DPST switch in the 120 v circuits?
So fare, none of the generators that I have seen have used a switch in the excitation winding circuit.

Thanks again for your input.

Well, I have not seen a generator that cuts the power by opening the excitation circuit either. But, in theory, it should work fine. Perhaps I should not mention such possibilities in the future until they are completely tested? The only downside I can think of right now would be a slight amount of residual magnetism that would allow a very small voltage to exist at the output. The switch shouldn't need to exceed the 12 amp rating normally found on most small SPST switches.

Perhaps Mr. Wizard and toprudder will chime in on this idea. Both have experience in this area.

[toprudder]

Just thought I would mention a couple of points about GFCI. There are two types, those for equipment protection and those for people protection. Obviously, the ones for protecting people have a lower ground fault current trip level. I'm not sure, but I suspect the ones for normal 120v convenience outlets are all for people protection. The ones for 240v or higher currents than 20 amps may come in either type, I'm not sure.

Placing a GFCI in the master circuit (ie: a 30a inline with the generator) is more likely to have false trips. Many electronic appliances have emi filtering that may include small caps from each line to ground, which will cause leakage current. If there are enough appliances like this plugged in, even if on separate circuits, the leakage current will sum and my be enough to trip a GFCI when there is no ground fault condition.

If the neutral is NOT referenced to ground somewhere in the system, then this is less likely to be a problem since the leakage current from the caps is more likely to be shared between both the neutral and hot conductors which will reduce the common mode current seen by the GFCI breaker.

JM2CW.

Bob R.

[Old___Slow]

bobandcat

Re: the use of propane.

I did consider that possibility. I have a compartment next to the genset I believe could be used and meet safely requirements after a retrofit, maybe.
Only problem, the bottles would need to rest on there side. So another problem. I did consider the main tank but didn't think of the lack of good supply pressure. Ok, lets assume the use of propane is worked out and move on.....What about the fan you show in the picture. Mrwizard I think says you have been on this project for a year. Maybe you can update us on your finding concerning heat levels. Also a fan update would be nice.

[bobandcat]

professor95 wrote:

bobandcat wrote:
Instead of using an inline 30 amp GFCI like yours, could I just replace my regular circuit breakers with GFCI circuit breakers in my 5ver's onboard power box??
This would serve a dual purpose for me. It would provide protection from both my generator and shore power.

Second request for you:
My C46535 genset winding have been rewired in parallel.
I have installed a toggle switch in my C46535 so that I can turn off any load to the genset when starting or stopping it. The switch is installed after the circuit breakers and voltmeter and before the outlets. By turning off the switch, it does the same as if the circuit breakers are open. However, when I use it, the voltmeter reading changes from 120 v to 240 v. Following the circuit diagrams for my 46535 and the 46540, if the circuit breakers are open, there is a still a circuit completed as long as an appliance is plugged into an outlet and it is at 240 v. Tracing it on the circuit diagram, winding 1 and winding 2 are in series when the circuit breakers are open rather than in parallel when the circuit breakers are closed. It hasn't caused any electrical problems for me yet. Maybe, the voltage is there, but little or no amperage. Please look at the circuit diagrams and comment on this. Thanks!

I am thinking of installing a triple pole toggle switch to break this path through the genny windings.

Yes, you could replace the current breakers with GFCI breakers in the RV's power panel. This type of GFCI provides both overcurrent and fault protection. While I have not encountered a 30 AMP GFCI breaker for a SEP (service entrance panel), that does not mean they do not exist. It would be nice if you could find a 30 amp unit to fit your SEP. I do know that both 15 amp and 20 amp combination breakers abound for Square D and ITE type panels used in RVs. Problem is they are really expensive - something like $35 to $50 each. Since most 30 Amp RVs have at least three circuits (some four), that would add up quickly. Another thought is that a panel mounted GFCI would only protect from the panel out. It would not provide protection to the RV service cable.

The portable type I posted a pic of yesterday will work with both a generator and shore power as well. Additionally, if you sell or trade your RV you have the option of taking it with you for the next one.

As for #2, you gave the answer in your last line. You need at least a DPDT switch to do what you desire. Another option is to remove power from the excitation winding. You can do that with a SPST switch.

Professor95,
I have completed a preliminary search for 30 amp GFCI circuit breakers. It looks like GE, Square D, Siemens and Murray supply them, usually for pools and hot tub applications. I don't know yet if any of them will fit my SEP. Since my generator is hard wired into my 5ver via a transfer switch, I need the GFCI in the SEP. Also, I may be paranoid, but having a $100 inline GFCI setting outside at the shore power hookup could be too tempting and someone might take a 5 finger discount.

Regarding my 2nd question, for the rewired 46535's and production 46540's when the circuit breakers open and the generator defaults to 240 volts, is there any danger to the appliances that are plugged into the generator??

As far as the toggle switch is concerned, I have a DPST installed that cuts the power just as the circuit breakers would do. I have no desire to have 240 volts.

Finally, if I install a SPST in the excitation winding circuit, what amperage capacity should it be?
If this is done, is there any reason to have the DPST switch in the 120 v circuits?
So fare, none of the generators that I have seen have used a switch in the excitation winding circuit.

Thanks again for your input.

[bobandcat]

Old & Slow wrote:
Re: Genset placement.

Well Mrprofessor, I'm starting to understand your wisdom. It comes out in many posts. I say this humbly, you are way high above common sense. You are a master of the best kind. I did not think of all the rules, well I didn't know the rules in the first place. We all need your trained mind. The gas tank, ah yes, I should have thought about that BIG item. Humm. The placement. I don't have a clue as to were that could be moved. All these problems! There must be more to come. I'm I to give up now on ever using the factory genset compartment? I wonder. I ask Mr Wizard, I think by PM, if the Onan low pressure fuel pump could be used with the Champ, already knowing the genset was gravity fed, well the short answer was NO. So this info' leaves me hanging by a thread.

Old & Slow,

Have you considered switching your genset over to propane? It would reduce its output by about 10%, but would eliminate the gas tank from your compartment.

If you do switch to propane, have a completely separate propane tank for the generator. Tapping the generator into your existing propane circuit is not good due to the reduced supply of propane to the generator when propane is needed for your other gas appliances.

[professor95]

bobandcat wrote:
Instead of using an inline 30 amp GFCI like yours, could I just replace my regular circuit breakers with GFCI circuit breakers in my 5ver's onboard power box??
This would serve a dual purpose for me. It would provide protection from both my generator and shore power.

Second request for you:
My C46535 genset winding have been rewired in parallel.
I have installed a toggle switch in my C46535 so that I can turn off any load to the genset when starting or stopping it. The switch is installed after the circuit breakers and voltmeter and before the outlets. By turning off the switch, it does the same as if the circuit breakers are open. However, when I use it, the voltmeter reading changes from 120 v to 240 v. Following the circuit diagrams for my 46535 and the 46540, if the circuit breakers are open, there is a still a circuit completed as long as an appliance is plugged into an outlet and it is at 240 v. Tracing it on the circuit diagram, winding 1 and winding 2 are in series when the circuit breakers are open rather than in parallel when the circuit breakers are closed. It hasn't caused any electrical problems for me yet. Maybe, the voltage is there, but little or no amperage. Please look at the circuit diagrams and comment on this. Thanks!

I am thinking of installing a triple pole toggle switch to break this path through the genny windings.

Yes, you could replace the current breakers with GFCI breakers in the RV's power panel. This type of GFCI provides both overcurrent and fault protection. While I have not encountered a 30 AMP GFCI breaker for a SEP (service entrance panel), that does not mean they do not exist. It would be nice if you could find a 30 amp unit to fit your SEP. I do know that both 15 amp and 20 amp combination breakers abound for Square D and ITE type panels used in RVs. Problem is they are really expensive - something like $35 to $50 each. Since most 30 Amp RVs have at least three circuits (some four), that would add up quickly. Another thought is that a panel mounted GFCI would only protect from the panel out. It would not provide protection to the RV service cable.

The portable type I posted a pic of yesterday will work with both a generator and shore power as well. Additionally, if you sell or trade your RV you have the option of taking it with you for the next one.

As for #2, you gave the answer in your last line. You need at least a DPDT switch to do what you desire. Another option is to remove power from the excitation winding. You can do that with a SPST switch.

[professor95]

jpkiljan wrote:
Dear Professor95,

Okay, I'll bite. Here's a link to a Department of Interior site--complete with scary cartoons and a fatality--showing a couple of things that can go wrong if the neutral and ground are not bonded when using a portable or vehicle-mounted generator with an appliance.

http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist5_13/5-13.pdf

or click HERE.

The first fault scenario sounds very similar to what happened when TKMJ's wife took that near-fatal jolt from their RV.

I've also heard that some manufacturers of light generators supply a 'neutral grounding plug' that one can simply plug into one of the generator's available 15-amp sockets when it is appropriate to do so. I have no idea what a plug like that would do when a generator is switched to its 240-volt position.

I had not seen the article you posted prior to today. I read it in its entirety several times, being careful to digest both the intent and content.

I thank you for bringing this to my attention. It is useful information.

There are a few things I want to bring out though.

US Dept of Interior, Bureau of Reclamation, Denver, CO. Fault Protection for Portable and Vehicle-Mounted Generators and Welders, March 1998 wrote:
Simply installing a GFCI will not ensure a safe system. A GFCI will not operate reliably if one side of the winding is not grounded to the generator frame because fault current has no path back to the winding to complete the circuit. On the other hand, simply grounding one side of the winding without also adding GFCI is inadequate. Although grounding the winding would increase the probability that the circuit breaker would trip on a ground fault, current levels would still be too high to protect personnel. A combination of grounding the winding and adding a GFCI is necessary.

The focus of the article is on a dual safety system using grounding and a GFCI. Unfortunately, this is not the case commonly encountered in the installation of portable gensets used with RVs.

US Dept of Interior wrote:
"EXCEPTION: Receptacles on a 2-wire, single-phase, portable or vehicle-mounted generator rated not more than 5 kilowatts, where the circuit conductors of the generator are insulated from the generator frame and all other grounded surfaces."

"Note that NEC exceptions only apply to 2-wire, 120-volt generators and not to 3-wire 120/240-volt generators, which do not meet the exception requirements in NEC Article 305-6. Therefore, 3-wire 120/240 volt generators must have neutral grounding and GFCI protection."

The generators we are talking about on this forum are "typically" 120 volt 2 wire units less than 5 KW. Yes, some units are capable of producing 240 volts, but when applying power from such a portable genset to an RV, both windings providing 240 volts are not used.

US Dept of Interior wrote:
"Simply installing a GFCI will not ensure a safe system. A GFCI will not operate reliably if one side of the winding is not grounded to the generator frame because fault current has no path back to the winding to complete the circuit. On the other hand, simply grounding one side of the winding without also adding GFCI is inadequate. Although grounding the winding would increase the probability that the circuit breaker would trip on a ground fault, current levels would still be too high to protect personnel. A combination of grounding the winding and adding a GFCI is necessary."

This statement caused considerable pause after I initially read it. At this point, I just cannot accept this statement as totally factual. My experiments and research with GFCIs indicate a different result. Perhaps I need to pursue further studies? If I come up with a different conclusion, I will certainly post it.

I still do not believe that bonding the neutral on a portable genset used with a 30 Amp TT connection is safe. There are too many variables in how the generator is installed that create unsafe conditions that are far more likely to occur than those cited in the article.

I will concede that "IF" (and a big IF) all portable genset's used on RV's were consistently bonded to a driven earth ground that bonding the neutral along with the ground would be OK if a GFCI were used. But this doesn't and won't happen. Thus, leave the genset neutral unbonded and floating.

BTW - Where do you stand on this discussion? Do you believe the neutral should be bonded to the genset frame for 30 Amp RV use, or are you just possibly trying to push my buttons? :W

Again, thanks for providing the link and info.

[bobandcat]

Professor95,

Instead of using an inline 30 amp GFCI like yours, could I just replace my regular circuit breakers with GFCI circuit breakers in my 5ver's onboard power box??
This would serve a dual purpose for me. It would provide protection from both my generator and shore power.

Second request for you:
My C46535 genset winding have been rewired in parallel.
I have installed a toggle switch in my C46535 so that I can turn off any load to the genset when starting or stopping it. The switch is installed after the circuit breakers and voltmeter and before the outlets. By turning off the switch, it does the same as if the circuit breakers are open. However, when I use it, the voltmeter reading changes from 120 v to 240 v. Following the circuit diagrams for my 46535 and the 46540, if the circuit breakers are open, there is a still a circuit completed as long as an appliance is plugged into an outlet and it is at 240 v. Tracing it on the circuit diagram, winding 1 and winding 2 are in series when the circuit breakers are open rather than in parallel when the circuit breakers are closed. It hasn't caused any electrical problems for me yet. Maybe, the voltage is there, but little or no amperage. Please look at the circuit diagrams and comment on this. Thanks!

I am thinking of installing a triple pole toggle switch to break this path through the genny windings.

[Old___Slow]

Re: Genset placement.

Well Mrprofessor, I'm starting to understand your wisdom. It comes out in many posts. I say this humbly, you are way high above common sense. You are a master of the best kind. I did not think of all the rules, well I didn't know the rules in the first place. We all need your trained mind. The gas tank, ah yes, I should have thought about that BIG item. Humm. The placement. I don't have a clue as to were that could be moved. All these problems! There must be more to come. I'm I to give up now on ever using the factory genset compartment? I wonder. I ask Mr Wizard, I think by PM, if the Onan low pressure fuel pump could be used with the Champ, already knowing the genset was gravity fed, well the short answer was NO. So this info' leaves me hanging by a thread.

[professor95]

Old & Slow wrote:
My problem is, and I'll just lay it out, a Auth. Onan man told me that the Chinses geneses need two feet of space all the way around. Is that true? My hope is, he is full if IT. You fill that mentioned requirement, if it is a true statement, by placing the Champ. on your rear added carrier. Bear with me in my total frustration to find a possible answer to all this

Yes, I would agree that the manufacturer requirement of 2 feet of space all the way around sounds reasonable. This would insure adequate space from flammable materials, adequate cooling and an enhanced mode of safety. Most likely if a fire or temperature related damage to a genset should occur the manufacturer could claim that the owner did not follow specified instructions and therefore was responsible for any damage......

Does this mean we should never break the rules set down by the maker of said goods?

There is this thing called common sense that may be misappropriate named since it is all too often anything but common. One should realize that these "rules" may be bent or broken provided additional safeguards are included. These safeguards must follow some parameter of sound engineering practice. For an enclosure such as you desire, I have three such practices that I feel absolutely should be followed:

#1 - put the genset muffler outside of the enclosure.
#2 - mount the fuel tank outside of the enclosure
#3 - design so that adequate air circulation is maintained going into the engine shroud, over the cylinder head and exits over the top of the alternator housing.

We can even add a global #4 for such items as; being sure the exhaust fumes do not enter the RV, the enclosure is made of a flame retardant material and a good fire extinguisher should be close by.

But still, we read about folks running portable gensets in closed garages attached to their house, fueling them with hot engines, placing them next to a bale of dry straw or even running them with no oil in the engine. Thus, manufactures put every imaginable label and rule you can think of in their manuals and on their product.

Even my set-up breaks the 2' rule. I am 8" on the engine side from the carrier box. 10" from the back wall of the camper on the rear. At least my exhaust is routed straight down and under the carrier so as to not blow hot gases on whatever might sit next to that side. I feel it is safe and will keep it that way until another idea comes along I like better.

You sound like a man who has ample common sense. I am confident safely putting the Champion in the old Onan enclosure can be accomplished if you just follow some simple rules.

[jpkiljan]

vpkiljan wrote:

. . .
the basic principals seem plain enough: the neutral should be connected to the ground wire at a single point (and only at a single point) in every electrical hookup--portable or residential. . . .

professor95 wrote:

. . .
One of my points is that a RV is not wired like your house. A RV is wired like an appliance. Therefore, the safety rules and issues change.
. . .
I am definately not here to argue (I doubt that you are either). I am here to share, compare and learn. (I feel that I have learned more than I have given on this forum.) If I am wrong someone needs to convince me why. I need to see a scenario that shows why neutral bonding to the frame on a portable genset used with a RV is safer than letting the neutral float and bonding the frame to earth ground.

Dear Professor95,

Okay, I'll bite. Here's a link to a Department of Interior site--complete with scary cartoons and a fatality--showing a couple of things that can go wrong if the neutral and ground are not bonded when using a portable or vehicle-mounted generator with an appliance.

http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist5_13/5-13.pdf

or click HERE.

The first fault scenario sounds very similar to what happened when TKMJ's wife took that near-fatal jolt from their RV.

I've also heard that some manufacturers of light generators supply a 'neutral grounding plug' that one can simply plug into one of the generator's available 15-amp sockets when it is appropriate to do so. I have no idea what a plug like that would do when a generator is switched to its 240-volt position.



All the best,

--John (aka VPKiljan)

[Old___Slow]

professor95

Re: A perfect fan.

I do agree a suitable fan could (with luck) be found. We always use,however, and I use it here to say...I want to find a solution available to every one wanting to use the factory genset compartment or for that matter, one of there own design, for a Chinese mfg genny.
Your posted picture says a lot. Just put it somewhere outside. I can do that, with ease, but I'm on a mission. Find a less expensive replacement for the Onan/Generac and use it in the space occupied by the former. My need as you can see is different from finding the proper location on your TT. My problem is, and I'll just lay it out, a Auth. Onan man told me that the Chinses gensets need two feet of space all the way around. Is that true? My hope is, he is full if IT. You fill that mentioned requirement, if it is a true statement, by placing the Champ. on your rear added carrier. Please allow my total frustration to find a possible answer to all this. Your a fine man, Doctor.

edit; I didn't mean ......you were full of IT, just the Onan guy. In my day I did not type my outgoing letters.