3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Broccoli1]

blkfe wrote:

bobandcat wrote:

blkfe wrote:
Here is the link to the genset with covers installed to bring down the noise.
In looking over their website it looks very similar tho the Champion design.
I wonder if it produces full power on one 120 outlet?


http://duropower.com/item.asp?PID=178&FID=2&level=1

Brad

I would love to look at one of these to see how they handled its cooling air.

Their dimensions indicate that its about 7" larger in length, width and height than the Champion. Its looks like it could be targeting the rv market with the 120v, 30 amp circuit and no 240 v circuit. Also, remote start would be a plus for rv's.

I called this place and learned the following,
It does indeed come with a wireless remote start but no auto choke. They stated you just set the choke to where it always starts and leave it there. I'm not sure I like that answer. seems to me it would run rich.

It is rated for 63db @ 7 meters @ full load, so thats good.

They could not answer if it had full rated output at the 30 amp plug, but will get back to me on that one.
Any thought anyone?

Brad

According to the specs it does: 1 Pole 120V/60Hz Max Current 30A Output (NEMA L5-30R/P)

[bobandcat]

professor95 wrote:

I see no reason why you cannot build an enclosure below the gas tank. You would need to elevate the gas tank a few inches which would require some hacksaw work and re-welding on the upper frame.

When I cut my Champion frame, I used 1/2" black iron pipe inserted into the tubular frame and 1/4" bolts to fasten it together. No welding neceassary for those without a welder and it allow you to swing the fuel tank out of the way to work on the engine if needed.

[MrWizard]

for me, it simply better to stick with PETRO, I full time, i need the propane for other things, a gas is easier to buy and to transport, found at every corner station

I can go on my scooter and get a gallon or 2 of gas, or i can siphon/pump it from the RV tanks (2)

but if i was stationary and wanted the genset for emg backup power to the utility company, propane would be a consideration

[professor95]

racefan1965 wrote:
I'd love to try and join in to the prototype process you mention. I am on a tightly fixed budget so as long as the modifications aren't too expensive you can count me in. I'm not the most mechanically inclined but can hold my own against most amateur tinkerers like myself. I'm not even close to being in the same league as you and several others on here though. I would need instructions on the propane conversion. My only worry is that a 2.5 gallon gas can is about 15 bucks filled if you count can and gas and easier to fill and transport in the back of the truck. Propane cylinders are three or four times more expensive and harder to transport and fill. Plus from my understanding you get less power from propane. My 5er is small and old (1984 24foot) and only has two 5gal propane tanks on it so for more than a couple days of use I would need either extra cylinders or a close place to refill. Not always possible so I wonder if converting would be smart for myself. It's too bad it's not possible to insulate between the gas tank and genset to avoid allowing the tank to act as a sound resonator. It would allow us gas users to continue running with gas while still obtaining the sound reduction.
Thanks,
Rick

The propane info provided in numerous previous postings is great. Information of that type certainly adds to the process.

Now, to address some commentsw and questions:

I do not plan on camping at zero degrees. If I did, my concerns would not be propane freezing, but rather my water system. My main need for a generator is air conditioning. Another BTU burner that will not come into play as the temps drop.

I see no reason why you cannot build an enclosure below the gas tank. You would need to elevate the gas tank a few inches which would require some hacksaw work and re-welding on the upper frame.

My genset engine puts out a rated 6.5 HP on 87 octane gasoline. US Carburation claims that you will not loose HP with a propane conversion - the engine will take the fuel it needs to sustain the power level. I tend to agree knowing my other conversions, as well as the current one, run the same load appliances as they did on gas.

Champion has a 4.5 HP, 2,200 watt LPG model that uses a 200 cc engine (same size as the 6.5 gas engine). But, the design of the cylinder head, valve size and ignition timing is vastly different. I have been told that the LPG model is a "lean burn" system to meet standards set by EPA and CARB. Since propane is a cleaner fuel than gasoline, this one leaves me wondering.:h

Locally, a 5 gallon "exchange" cylinder of propane is between $14.75 and $18.00. If I take my cylinder to my RV dealer, propane is $2.35 a gallon - cheaper than gasoline which is currently about $2.65 a gallon here.

Please keep in mind I selected LPG to meet MY particular needs. I am not advocating that anyone else needs to use propane unless it meets their needs better than gas.

I'll try and make some photos and develop a "white paper" for propane conversion on the Chinese gensets sometime this week. I will post the info for those interested.

[racefan1965]

skyzoomer wrote:
Wgeorge11 and racefan1965,

Thanks for the info on the tires. Gotta get my C46540 on wheels since it is too heavy for one person (me) to carry. (Using it as a home backup generator, not on a RV.)

Skyzoomer

The champion wheel kit starts at around $30.00 if I remember right. if you can wait a couple weeks you can pick up a wheel kit for 4000watt gensets here for $20.00. They are just out of stock and expecting a new supply at the end of the month.

Rick

[skyzoomer]

Wgeorge11 and racefan1965,

Thanks for the info on the tires. Gotta get my C46540 on wheels since it is too heavy for one person (me) to carry. (Using it as a home backup generator, not on a RV.)

Skyzoomer

[alltenofus]

Well I'm about to give up on my UST genset. Twice now it has failed to be able to run the AC while dry camping - though it works when run at the house. The AC unit is kicking out- Ive been watching the voltage and it drops about 10 on the genset meter when the AC is on. I think the voltage regulation is not well designed and lets the voltage drop under heavy load. Then the AC overheats and kicks out. Any ideas? My AC is a 15000 BTU unit on a 2005 GulfBreeze. Of course it works hard here in Texas. Has anyone had trouble with the Champion 3500 with this size AC? Is there a larger Chinese genset wired for 110V 30A- twist lock or RV plug? I can sell the UST and not lose too much - question is - go with the Champion or go up to 5000 watts?

[blkfe]

Old & Slow wrote:
Thanks Brad,

One question. If we use the on board LPG tank in our RV's (my MH has a 37lb tank) and say our Hot Water Heater, Stove, Heater and then a added propane genny are all in use at the same time, is this to much draw?

You have to add all the propane draws to get the total btu draw on the tank. I would guess the water heater only runs once in a while and the genset is not running an air conditioner if the heater is running so that helps. I,m guessing you have a 20 or 30,000 btu heater.

I'm sure it will work but doubt you will be able to use all of the propane in your tank if it is really cold out. I would have two tanks so I could use one while the other warms up.
If nothing else purchase a 20 or 30 lb. at Wally world if you don,t already have a spare.

Brad

[Old___Slow]

Thanks Brad,

One question. If we use the on board LPG tank in our RV's (my MH has a 37lb tank) and say our Hot Water Heater, Stove, Heater and then a added propane genny are all in use at the same time, is this to much draw?

[blkfe]

bobandcat wrote:

blkfe wrote:
Here is the link to the genset with covers installed to bring down the noise.
In looking over their website it looks very similar tho the Champion design.
I wonder if it produces full power on one 120 outlet?


http://duropower.com/item.asp?PID=178&FID=2&level=1

Brad

I would love to look at one of these to see how they handled its cooling air.

Their dimensions indicate that its about 7" larger in length, width and height than the Champion. Its looks like it could be targeting the rv market with the 120v, 30 amp circuit and no 240 v circuit. Also, remote start would be a plus for rv's.

I called this place and learned the following,
It does indeed come with a wireless remote start but no auto choke. They stated you just set the choke to where it always starts and leave it there. I'm not sure I like that answer. seems to me it would run rich.

It is rated for 63db @ 7 meters @ full load, so thats good.

They could not answer if it had full rated output at the 30 amp plug, but will get back to me on that one.
Any thought anyone?

Brad

[blkfe]

This Chart shows the max btu/hour that can be drawn from a 30 lb tank without freezing up.

+60F 32,000
+50F 28,300
+40F 24,700
+30F 21,000
+20F 17,300
+10F 13,700
0 10,000
-10F 6,400
-20F 2,700
This is a worse case scenario. For instance, when a 20# cylinder is full it can run a 16hp engine for quite some time in 40 degree weather before there will be any freezing problem. But if you wanted to use up all the gas in a cylinder, it would have to be sized according to the chart.



Here is why. Propane is stored as a liquid under pressure and boils to produce a vapor that is drawn off at the top for the engine to use as the fuel. Because propane boils at -44° (below zero), the gas will freeze if it can not absorb enough ambient heat to compensate for the boiling process. The bigger the cylinder is compared to the amount of load, the warmer it is outside, the warmer the cylinder is kept, all are a determining factor in the likelihood of a cylinder freezing up.

If a sweat or frost line forms around the cylinder at the level of the fuel, this is a telltale sign that the cylinder over worked and is in the process of freeze up. If the gas does freeze, it will stop producing vapor and the pressure inside the cylinder will drop to as low as zero psi which will cause the engine to stop running.


To compensate for an undersize cylinder, two cylinders can be tied together using a tee check and pigtails. Some customers set the cylinder near the exhaust of the engine to help keep the cylinder warm and have no problem using smaller tanks on bigger engines. This practice needs to be carefully monitored so that the cylinder does not overheat and cause the relief valve to check off.

This is not from my brain...it is from this website.
http://www.yamaha-propane-natural-gas-generators.com/fuel_consumption.htm
Hope it helps!
Brad

[racefan1965]

Thanks Brad for the info. I didn't expect such a detailed report. It was a nice surprise. 🙂

Rick

[Old___Slow]

IF the bottle does not freeze up...thats another story.
Brad


Please, will you give us some or all the story of a freeze up.

[blkfe]

So...
a 3500 watt genset running full load uses (7 x 10,000= 70,000 btu)
@ 92,000 btu per gal = .76 gal or approx. 3.2 lbs per hour

A 3500 watt genset running at 50% load (1750 watts)uses (1.75 x 2 x 10,000= 35,000 btu/hr

35,000/92000=.38 gal per hour or 1.5 lbs/hr.

Or 20 hours on a 30 lb bottle.

IF the bottle does not freeze up...thats another story.
Brad

[blkfe]

BTU consumption chart based on generator/engine size and load
Wattage Engine Horsepower Full Load 75% Load 50% Load
1850 3.5 35,000 26,250 17,500
4000 8 80,000 60,000 40,000
5000 10 100,000 75,000 50,000
7500 15.5 155,000 116,250 77,500


It requires 2 horsepower to produce 1000 watts of energy per hour under load

Under load, each horsepower consumes 10,000 BTU per hour

Propane contains 92,000 BTU per gallon

Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon


If you need more info let me know..
Brad