โMar-02-2005 06:20 AM
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.
In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.
Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.
What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.
Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.
I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.
Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.
No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.
Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.
Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.
We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.
Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.
Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.
This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......
Randy
For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โcloningโ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โrunningโ display model.
I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:
Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)
The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โSupposedlyโ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.
The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โabove average qualityโ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.
The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.
ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โavailability listingโ.
The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ most likely universally available.
The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โreasonablyโ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โlook alikeโ eng...
โDec-12-2007 06:49 PM
โDec-12-2007 05:53 PM
โDec-12-2007 05:49 PM
toprudder wrote:
Regarding the unmonitored leg, and the waveform distortion. I assume the voltages you quoted are all RMS. What were the peak values? While the high RMS voltages could damage resistive loads (lights, heaters) the peak values, if excessively high, can damage electronic circuits. And, they can play havoc with the MOVs in the devices that use them for surge protection.
โDec-12-2007 05:48 PM
โDec-12-2007 05:20 PM
generator-guy wrote:
I confirmed the AVR only monitors one of the two legs in 240 volt mode. THIS COULD BE A RATHER SERIOUS PROBLEM! The voltage tended to be on the high side with my unit to begin with. And when I put 15 amps (about 1800 watts) of load on the monitored leg running in 2 phase mode, the voltage on the other "hot" leg of the 240 outlet was a stunning 148 volts!!! This is an extreme case, but it's a good reason for those who aren't going to keep track of how much load is on each leg to just use the generator in 120 volt mode. 148 volts can do some damage.
....(snip)....
The waveform starts off fairly clean with no load. It measures about 4% THD (total harmonic distortion) unloaded. At 1750 watts it gets rather "pointed" and starts looking more like a triangle wave with an odd "step" in it than a sine wave and the THD is 8%. At 2500 watts the THD rose to 11%. At 3300 watts it was 15%. These measurements are with purely resistive loads. I'd expect even more waveform distortion with inductive/reactive loads (i.e. motors, computer equipment, etc.). This is pretty typical performance of a low end generator of this size. I've seen worse.
โDec-12-2007 04:34 PM
โDec-12-2007 04:31 PM
Old & Slow wrote:
Silence is not always Golden, so here I am.
Generator Guy, I have nothing better to do than follow up on a post. Just keyed in Panamax, from their I opened to Ebay/panamax. Wow, didn't know one might spend up to $800 plus for some units. There is a Power strip PM 8 dsb Ex @ $56.40 on Ebay. Is this something like you suggest. Will this protect my LCD Monitor/HDTV and PC using the Champion C46540?
โDec-12-2007 04:14 PM
โDec-12-2007 07:44 AM
professor95 wrote:
746 watts of electrical power can accomplish one horse power of energy (provided there is no waste). When using a gasoline engine to produce electricity in a generator or alternator (wattage/power) typical efficiencies for the Chinese built 3,000 watt class gensets rarely exceed 70%. The other 30% is lost due to the conversion of chemical energy (fuel) into heat energy then into mechanical energy and finally into electrical energy.
โDec-12-2007 05:44 AM
Old & Slow wrote:professor95 wrote:
I have no so called "bone" to pick with DuroPower.
I have no first hand experience with their products.
Nothing would please me more than to welcome them as a new, customer oriented supplier of available and durable Chinese built gensets at a value price.
Every time a new brand appears this forum has endeavored to investigate and evaluate both the company and product. The forum has become in many ways a Chinese Genset Consumer Testing and Report Group.
We have in the past two years identified companies and brands that one should use caution in dealing with.
The early Nikota was identified as less than satisfactory for RV use - a few weeks later it went bankrupt.
ELIM International, the company that got the ball rolling with the ELM3000, dropped the ball on customer service and warranty issues. They also changed to a new supplier and did not offer the full wattage to a single outlet. The forum identified the problems and it became buyer beware.
When Champion came on the scene their initial reviews were extremely low. They did not have a full power at 120 volt provision and used a questionable circuit breaker configuration. Ironically, Champion took note, changed their product and came on strong with customer service to the RV community.
Harbor Freight, Cummings and Homier all passed muster with their JD built 3,000 watt units. Warranty and service were acceptable, but sometimes slow.
PowerPro and PowerWise also made the top 5 list on the forum. But again, once the stores (PepBoys and COSTCO) were out of the warranty & service loop some issues developed.
UST was interesting. Little additional data has been collected. Same is true for the Big Lot's brand of a similar genset.
The Chinese built Onan 3,500 watt Homesite is as expected getting good reviews. Backed by the Onan/Cummings dealership network, warranty, parts and service should be top-notch. As noted, buyers are paing a higher price for the name and network.
Now DuroPower is on the scene. They have a really good web site with an extensive listing of different models available. They have a broad range of parts pictured on-line. Outward appearances make one believe they are a massive distributor with warehouses of gensets ready to ship. Feedback from folks on the forum is beginning to suggest a different picture about the company. The info is being shared because WE collectively make up the largest single support and evaluation group for Chinese gensets in the world. If we identify a good company and product, we need to share it so that others can benefit from our experiences. Same is true if we find one less than good.
That's what it is all about, guys. Their ain't no Chevy vs.
Ford or gas vs. diesel wars on this forum!
Professor95/Others:
Your desire to investigate the Chinese gensets being offered on the market has been a good one. Because of that desire, so much important information in now available on this thread. Like you state, it's been a great learning experience. The background you have in learning (PHD) and teaching 40 plus years in the field of Electronics and shared with all is so appreciated.
DuroPower:
I feel compelled to share what I know about buying this brand. The unit was ordered and delivered with no problems. It was delivered by FexEx with no damage. The unit was well packed from the factory. Testing began in a newly built (yellow, yet to have black trim for finish) Gen House. The DP3500EC was unpacked with no damage to the unit but a slight crack in the 12v battery caused a small leak. A Gas Generator Key Starter was ordered. The part was shipped the day it was ordered, just like the genset. When the part was opened, the part is not as described. Later, DP responded and offered a replacement. DuroPower (the mfg) offers many high end Gensets and a wide variety of Equipment. Yes, it is important to have CS, however, it is also to be taken into consideration, what is the original cost. The Cost of the DuroPower Electric Start was a prime factor in buying this brand. I may never need service in the one year period. My DP3500EC has proven to be excellent in all respects in shop testing. Someday perhaps it will be tested with my MH.
Champion:
At this time my MH is powered with the Champion C46540 with great success. IMHO, it should have never been placed in the factory genset compartment, even my owners manual states it should not be placed in a factory compartment. The manual also states the genset needs 2' of space all around. I have retro-fitted my compartment with simple slides and it can be pulled out and operated with near 2' of air space and that is ok by the manual. Also, the fuel tank has been relocated and not in the genset compartment. The main problem I find with the genset placed in the Factory Compartment is dirt from road travel covering genny. If operating the unit on the road, dirt and water would inter the genhead. My compartment is not designed for the Champion. My beloved little Yellow and Black genny must always be clean and beautiful to please it's owner, me. Professor95 has placed his Champion on a rear carrier and I plan to follow his lead perhaps someday.
Professor95, thanks for offering all your time and knowledge concerning 3000w Chinese gensets.
Floyd
O&S
โDec-12-2007 05:26 AM
โDec-11-2007 09:44 PM
professor95 wrote:
Yes, there is a cheap, simple and dirty solution. I pondered on making such a circuit, but decided it was not really that necessary. If you are determined to do it...
If AC out on the genset should rise so will the DC voltage out of the adapter and the voltage to the base of the transistor. When the voltage on the base of the transistor hits +.7 VDC or higher, the transistor conducts and supply voltage flows from the collector to emitter. This keys the relay which grounds the line going to the low oil shutdown switch.
โDec-11-2007 07:55 PM
โDec-11-2007 07:47 PM
โDec-11-2007 07:10 PM