3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[mitt]

Old & Slow wrote:
Thanks mitt,

This is Old and Slow. Prof95 must be doin' a head scratch.
Floyd

Sorry - must have quoted the wrong person.

I think it is safe to say that the power plate on appliances may not be exactly right - there must be some fudge factor for safety, and some assumptions about startup versus steady state, and there can be changes, as motors and compressors wear.

mitt

[Old___Slow]

Thanks mitt,

This is Old and Slow. Prof95 must be doin' a head scratch. Anyway I want to get to the bottom of this thing about my all Electric 12a Fridge thing, someone on this or another thread mentioned sometimes the amps stated on the metel plate on the compressor is not always correct. I now have a clamp on meter and Brad had previously PM'ed my how to use the new fangled thing. I'm a novice with lots of questions. Sometimes I drive Prof95 crazy. I just want to know how my C46540 operates a 300/500w converter/Battery charger, my 13,500 Coleman A/C and the 12a (compressor type) fridge. Plus with a death deifying lag, I have turn on the 800w Micro for 5 minutes (LCD clock did that funny stuff). I am in the process of changing out the Champ. in my MH to a Electric Start DP3500EC so will know soon how the two match up in output. This is going to be interesting.
I will then check the draw of the fridge, using your method. To check the draw of the A/C I might not get that far, would require going into the panel and I'm no 'lectrician. Think that way of spelling came from our Wgeorge11? I just want to know these things.

One more thing, on another thread I saw pictured the first oil change with all the Aluminum dust partials showing in the oil. I changed oil for the first time in my DP3500EC yesterday and was amazed when I saw the same thing in the oil. So folks, do that first oil change sooner than later!

Floyd

[mitt]

For running wattage, I just took the steady state current, and mulitplied it by 120, which is probably pretty close to accurate, since running wattage would be RMS voltage times RMS current.




mitt

[mitt]

O&S not prof wrote:
Several things. One, interested how you were able to determine the 2300w startup of the Fridge with the 350w/s running. Understand I'm a novice. The reason I ask is I have a 12a Electric Fridge in my HM and a 300/500w converter/batt.chg and a 13,500btu Coleman A/C and all will operate with the little C46540, if I set the A/C so it will not cycle have run the 800w micro for 5 minutes. If the Fringe startup is 3/1, I can't to this day understand how this all happens.

I used a Fluke True RMS digital multi meter with a 0 to 70A current clamp on one conductor in a heavy duty extension cord. The extension cord has at one end the covering removed and the individual wires split, so the clamp can go on just one of them.

The meter can record min and max currrent, so I set it, then let the fridge cycle on and off several times, then took the max current reading and multiplied it by 120V - which is not exactly correct, because there was probably more or less voltage at the instant of peak current. But anyway, my 7A fridge seems to line up pretty well with the published start up watts of 2400 you see on a lot of gen sites.

mitt

[professor95]

mitt wrote:
Anyone seen the new EP series by Honda? They look a lot like some of the $300 generators out there - link:

http://allproductsdistributing.com/ep2500main.html

Interesting. I have been told by sources I deem accurate and reliable that Honda's GX line of engines are currently being built in China - not Japan. Makes economic sense to me since they (Japan) now have the same high labor and manufacturing cost as we deal with in the USA.

I'll bet you two dollars to a donut that Honda does not make the genset shown on the allproducts site any more than Onan actually builds the Homesite. It is all in licensing and outsourcing. Honda needs to stay competitive with the boom of small Chinese gensets just like Onan did. What better way to do it?

BTW, I raised a few eyebrows when I posted this photo over two years ago.
Maybe I'm better at predicting the future than I thought?

[Old___Slow]

Prof95;

It has been said 'old soldiers never die, they just smell that way' If your DW is not fussin' about the old fart, who should care? Ok, already, I'll go the bed now.

[professor95]

vmckague wrote:
Hello guys, I have a question, A friend of mine bought a Champion after me telling him about the good luck everyone is having. 300 dollars + tax. Only thing is it will not run at exactly 3600. With or without load it goes from 3580 to 3610 RPM's. I put my tiny tach on it. This is used mostly to run some appliances such as TV, DVR, and a few lights in his house during power failure. Will this hurt anything? I told him I didn't think so but to be on the safe side I thought I'd ask. Thanks in advance

Someone may jump in here and tell us different, but I can't think of anything you would normally have in your RV or even your home that would be "HURT" by a frequency as low as 50 HZ or as high as 70 HZ.

When Hurricane Isabel knocked out our power for almost two weeks, I ran most everything in my house (TV, lights, radio, microwave, etc.) from a 5,500 watt Generac ratcheted up to 4,000+ rpm so it would kick in the well pump. It was running somewhere between 66 and 70 Hz the entire time (also up to 141 volts when load dropped).

That said, synchronous motors that depend on frequency will change speed and some appliances that sample the line frequency to set a clock may not perform as designed. Cheap, underpowered blenders may also let out a stink when trying to make frozen margaritas with lots of ice to crush while running on a lower frequency (and voltage).

In the past (way past) some "ferroresonate" devices and even iron core transformers would get a little hotter and lose efficiency when frequency deviated from 60 HZ. Most all of those devices are now buried in landfills.

You know, it has nothing to do with your question, but I still internally call it cycles rather than Hertz. Sometimes in the classroom I have to correct myself and use "Hertz". Personally, I know Hertz rents cars and I have yet to ride a bihertz or a motorhertz. Oh well, some of us old farts will never really change.

[Old___Slow]

mitt wrote:
Noob here - interesting read, and good forum.

I too am in the market for a generator, not for RVing, but for basic home backup (furnace and fridge staggered). I am in the 3000w market, and have looked at the full range of what's out there.

I have also taken some start-up and steady state measurements for my home appliances, and so far, the fridge is the highest, with about 2300W TRMS startup and 350W TRMS running, while the 1/3HP furnace is about 1100W TRMS startup and 600W TRMS running.

Anyone seen the new EP series by Honda? They look a lot like some of the $300 generators out there - link:

http://allproductsdistributing.com/ep2500main.html

I talked with Northen Tools, and the EP2500 is due in March. I don't get hung up on names, but I do like customer service, and dealer networks, so I might pay $800 for one versus $350 for a Champion.

I really like the Honda EB3000, but it has GFI, which isn't good for my single circuit furnace transfer switch, and it is $1250 - which is a lot of money. At that price, the Yamaha 2400is or 2800is is within reach.

mitt

mitt,

This is the first post you gave us the pleasure to read. Your last post states you selected the Champion C46540 that so many of us on this thread have had such great success. And @ $260, congrats. That is VALUE PLUS. Don't know how many will find a way to follow you at that price.

Several things. One, interested how you were able to determine the 2300w startup of the Fridge with the 350w/s running. Understand I'm a novice. The reason I ask is I have a 12a Electric Fridge in my HM and a 300/500w converter/batt.chg and a 13,500btu Coleman A/C and all will operate with the little C46540, if I set the A/C so it will not cycle have run the 800w micro for 5 minutes. If the Fringe startup is 3/1, I can't to this day understand how this all happens. This must be a exception to the rule.

Second, the picture of the HONDA EP2500CX that you say is one the way to the US market (looks Chinese to me) is going to be a real BLOW to the face of all those H & Y folks. Chinese HONDA:S

[professor95]

beardedone wrote:
I have been following this thread off and on for quite a while now. I want a gen set for my RV and in a pinch for my furnace if we have a black out. I live in Canada and so the Canadian Standards come into play. Dealers in the U.S. will not ship to Canada (probably something to do with the different electrical standards). In Canada Champion sells several models for us only. By visiting there site at championpowserequipment.com/generator.php I was able to compare the US model C46540 (RV ready) and the closest Canadian model, CSA40015 which is RV ready, but uses an adapter plug, and doesn't have 220. The CSA version is 3500/3000 vs the US one which is 4000/3500. They do appear somewhat similar except for their ratings. Can anyone tell me how they compare or if the CSA40015 will power a 15,000 btu A/C unit. Your help is greatly appreciated.

The CSA400015 will (should) power your 15K BTU A/C fine. It has the same genhead as my 40008, which does a good job with my 15K BTU A/C.

The CSA model you referenced is "almost" identical to the model sold in the lower 48 by Home Depot. Both the HD model and the CSA model have the neutral bonded to the frame - other US models do not.

The 120 only alternator on both the 40008 and CSA400015 produce a cleaner waveform with less distortion than previous 120/220 models.

Forget all those high wattage claims. You will get 2,800 to 3,000 watts from virtually all models using the 200 CC engine no matter what the higher claims are.

[mitt]

After doing A LOT of research, both here on rv.net and other sites, I bought a champion 46540 (3500/4000W) generator today from TSC for 289 minus 10% coupon, so about $260 w/o tax.

Started right up, and voltage was right on at 124V unloaded and with a 1400W heater plugged in (that was using an averaging RMS DMM, so it could have some error - I will use a Fluke TRMS DMM sometime this week).

The frequency was a little higher than I would have liked, between 62 and 63Hz, but I think it should be fine for emergency use.

I will run it in some more this next week, and report any findings. I am also planning an elegant noise filter, surge supression, and over/under voltage protection that will be all off the shelf components, and should run in the 200 to 300 dollar range. When I finish the project, I will start a new thread about that.


mitt

[trumptman88]

Old & Slow wrote:

vmckague wrote:
Does anyone know who makes the genset for Maxpower? They go by the brand name Powermax. Maxpower claims these gens are made only for them but I find this hard to believe. I tried researching on the Internet but can't find any info and I tried looking on the block but haven't been able to see any markings. The only info was on the box and it said made in China. Thanks in advance.

Many of us who contribute to this thread almost bought the PowerMax Brand. I am interest to know more of what you discover as time goes by. They seem to be a high volume importer. You might post a photo of the inside of the genhead, just what you see when the end cap is removed. I was vary surprised when I open the genhead cap on my DuroPower DP3500EC to see much heavier wires that I have on my Champion C46540. Also inside the front control panel on the DuroPower looks more High Quality. The 6.5hp engine on most all of the brands seem to be about the same. One possible difference with the Champion might be in a higher quality wire used in the windings over other brands.. That would be a interesting finding. Maybe on this thread we can do some SERIOUS sharing of not only ideas but compare the quality of what we find. "3000w Chinese Gensets info." ( GENSETS) all.

Floyd
O&S

I agree. I own a Champion like many here but wouldn't mind selling it at a slight loss to get a bit more in terms of features.

I know knocking off a few more decibels requires redesigns on the motor that are not likely to take place. However I was very surprised that the DuroPower offered the wheel kit and electric start for only $50 more than the Champion.

Someone is going to force my hand if they offer a genny with electric start via a remote. I already love everything else about my Champion but those are the features that would lead me astray. Of course by the time they get around to that, the six and eight year old boys eating me out of house and home might be able to work the pull start by then.

I have always been shocked by how good my Champion is on gas. I run it quite a bit on our desert runs to charge batteries, and run the TV or air conditioner through the heat of the day. With this use it easily makes it through four to five days of camping on one tank.

On our last trip, we went five days and on the very first day the propane regulator gave up the ghost and we were without a cold refrigerator. We ran it for eight hours to keep the food cold, fixed the propane regulator, and then had it still make it through the rest of the five day trip without having to fill up. I think filling the tank to the absolute lip though doesn't count as only four gallons though.

[bobojay5]

coachk34 wrote:
Where do you find the 10% off coupon for tractor supply? When does it expire? Thanks.

We got it in the mail last week....tossed it the next day, so sorry I can't tell you the expiration date.

[coachk34]

Where do you find the 10% off coupon for tractor supply? When does it expire? Thanks.

[Old___Slow]

vmckague wrote:
Does anyone know who makes the genset for Maxpower? They go by the brand name Powermax. Maxpower claims these gens are made only for them but I find this hard to believe. I tried researching on the Internet but can't find any info and I tried looking on the block but haven't been able to see any markings. The only info was on the box and it said made in China. Thanks in advance.

Many of us who contribute to this thread almost bought the PowerMax Brand. I am interest to know more of what you discover as time goes by. They seem to be a high volume importer. You might post a photo of the inside of the genhead, just what you see when the end cap is removed. I was vary surprised when I open the genhead cap on my DuroPower DP3500EC to see much heavier wires that I have on my Champion C46540. Also inside the front control panel on the DuroPower looks more High Quality. The 6.5hp engine on most all of the brands seem to be about the same. One possible difference with the Champion might be in a higher quality wire used in the windings over other brands.. That would be a interesting finding. Maybe on this thread we can do some SERIOUS sharing of not only ideas but compare the quality of what we find. "3000w Chinese Gensets info." ( GENSETS) all.

Floyd
O&S

[mitt]

blkfe wrote:

Someone check my math but I think thats less than 1 Hz deviation in frequency. Will be fine. Actually, when I think about it more, Thats AWESOME.

yep, about 59.7 and 60.2Hz respectively, very impressive.


mitt