3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

BFRXLT,

The last post I headed with your handle was kinda like being on a road to no place. But folks are trying to be nice the best we can. So no one zoomed in on Old and Slow. Thanks men. My question was really concerning your find on Surge suppression for a genset even though most of us have a Chinese genny and not the Powermate. Maybe you can get the goose (me) out of the fog.

[kausin_komotion]

And I appreciated the humor!!

Maybe I will have to transfer to my employers generator division then when I talk about work it will be about generators and on topic.

The smallest generators we make though are whole house generators,Will that still qualify?

[BFRXLT]

Old & Slow wrote:
BFRXLT (Jack)

Where you been? Good to see a post from you. We have recently mentioned spark arrestors (screens). Did you try the muffler/screen S3 and did it lower the db by 3/5? I know for sure the screen on my Champion does lower the noise level when inserted by some amount. Now I'm beginning to understand ? the story of some that post not being able to start a A/C with underpowered Inverters.
So there is a advantage of using these old clunky heavy flywheel gensets. Reading these different threads is like taking a 101 class in Power Generation. I miss MrWizard giving his take. He once gave his idea that the AVR suffers and possibly fails from the spikes. Mostly due to a shut down with a load. Me thinks the AVR has a weak sister somewhere in a component, I understand even most Capacitors are rated from a mfg for only so many starts, like maybe 2000 on a compressor. So interesting when posters pass along what they have discovered. Now, will you kindly give more info' on the surge protector you reference. The only concern for me is over voltage. From what we are learning, the possibility of this happening from our portable genny is low. But, better to be safe than sorry. I do believe Prof95 will soon lead us in the right direction. My gut feeling is, he is deep into the project.

I got the S5 with resonator and yes it lowered the db level by at least that much maybe more. I have not had a chance to chenck it in depth yet.

I am currently building an enclosure that has made a huge difference so far but am not ready to post the pics or results yet. I will say that I have quieted it down by 15 db so far. I started at about 87 db and am down to 72 db at 10 ft. My yard is pretty small so I am limited by that to the distance I can measure.

Outside of my yard I can hardly hear it since there is a block wall. I have one neighbor that can hear it pretty well due to the design of our houses and the way they sit so I still need more work.

In their back yard noise level is at about 65 db. They can carry on a normal conversation but it is annoying after awhile. I don't want them to listen to it for long. The generator is within 7 ft of my block wall and it seems to reflect into their yard.

I read this and other threads almost always once a day or more.

EDIT:

Powermate closed down production for good? That may be why I got my 5700 continuous generator for $400. Not good news for me but I still got a great deal on the gen.

[Oldfordman]

professor95 wrote:
(on Spark Arrestors) Mine is nothing more than a piece of metal screening. I think the theory is that a piece of hot carbon or avulsed metal could fly out the exhaust and start a fire in dry tender. If you use it, be sure to check occasionally to make sure carbon has not stopped it up.

Still do not know if NPS and NFS are the same requirments. Anybody know for sure?

Regardless of where the spark arrestor is located, in the muffler or a screen at the outlet, it needs to be cleaned regularly (if possible). If it is plugged, even partially, it can make the difference between an AC unit starting or not. It can also make the difference of running both the A/C and Microwave at the same time.

As for standards on the Spark Arrestors, the National Forest Service set the "bar" and everyone else follows their lead.

[professor95]

Briggs & Stratton continues to make generators. They aquired GENERAC in 2001.

Onan is still there, but their 3,000 watt model is a Chinese unit.

Northern Tool makes their own NorthStar generators, but many are assembled from Japanese and Chinese parts.

Something will need to fill the void left by Powermate at Home Depot, Lowe's and Wal-Mart. All are volume small power product retailers. It will be interesting to see what rises from the ashes. (some HD locations currently sell Champion - maybe expansion to other stores is in the future?)

I'm also curious to see what happens to Powermate parts supplies. At least B&S continued to provide Generac parts after that take over.

[Old___Slow]

How does the market stand now.

[professor95]

Robert Price, Channel 5 News wrote:
(3/21/2008) By Robert Price - After 22 years in Central Nebraska, the Coleman Powermate Plant closed its doors for good Friday. The shutdown leaves employees looking for new jobs not knowing what will come next

Wow! Coleman makes a ton of small generators. Home Depot, Wal-Mart and Lowe's in this area all carry Powermate.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

The Honda inverter generators handle surges by running the engine at a speed greater than what's needed to meet the current power demand. The data isn't part of the published specifications. The patents hint that the engine speed is set to make the currently present load 70% of the maximum available. The result is that smaller surges are absorbed with little effect on the generator's output. When the demand for increased power is large, the lighter rotating mass becomes a liability, and the output voltage drops until the motor can be throttled up and spins faster.

These pictures are the electronics module from an eu2000i. Hard to tell much of what's in there. The 2 big capacitors are 1,500 uf. each, and they won't carry a big load very long. I don't want to try to do the math but I'd bet it's less than a half second.

[LittleBill]

bobandcat wrote:

weissmand wrote:
I was under the notion that inverter generators had some sort of momentary storage (e.g. large capacitor) that allow for the increased draw in current until the engine could rev up to the needed supply requirements.

Is that incorrect?

My understanding is that "large capacitor" is the genset's battery. I read this in an inverter generator forum. Yamaha was the first to add the stored power of the 12v battery to overcome short duration startup power surge needs for starting AC units, etc.

the 2000i doesn't use a battery, i would bet on the capacitor theory

[bobandcat]

weissmand wrote:
I was under the notion that inverter generators had some sort of momentary storage (e.g. large capacitor) that allow for the increased draw in current until the engine could rev up to the needed supply requirements.

Is that incorrect?

My understanding is that "large capacitor" is the genset's battery. I read this in an inverter generator forum. Yamaha was the first to add the stored power of the 12v battery to overcome short duration startup power surge needs for starting AC units, etc.

[weissmand]

I was under the notion that inverter generators had some sort of momentary storage (e.g. large capacitor) that allow for the increased draw in current until the engine could rev up to the needed supply requirements.

Is that incorrect?

[Old___Slow]

Will OP please take over these subjects. I want to be a PRO lurker, if possible. lol

[Old___Slow]

BFRXLT (Jack)

Where you been? Good to see a post from you. We have recently mentioned spark arrestors (screens). Did you try the muffler/screen S3 and did it lower the db by 3/5? I know for sure the screen on my Champion does lower the noise level when inserted by some amount. Now I'm beginning to understand ? the story of some that post not being able to start a A/C with underpowered Inverters.
So there is a advantage of using these old clunky heavy flywheel gensets. Reading these different threads is like taking a 101 class in Power Generation. I miss MrWizard giving his take. He once gave his idea that the AVR suffers and possibly fails from the spikes. Mostly due to a shut down with a load. Me thinks the AVR has a weak sister somewhere in a component, I understand even most Capacitors are rated from a mfg for only so many starts, like maybe 2000 on a compressor. So interesting when posters pass along what they have discovered. Now, will you kindly give more info' on the surge protector you reference. The only concern for me is over voltage. From what we are learning, the possibility of this happening from our portable genny is low. But, better to be safe than sorry. I do believe Prof95 will soon lead us in the right direction. My gut feeling is, he is deep into the project.

[BFRXLT]

I'm not an expert on generators or anything but the non-inverter generators are already turning at 3600 RPM. Inverter style generators are turning slower than that depending on the current load the are running. When you turn on an AC unit with a non-inverter generator it's already at speed while the inverter style generator has to actually speed up to power the load. I think that is part of the reason the inverter gens cannot start the AC unit where the non-inverter gens can.

That being said I have a power backup device that provides surge protection as well as over/under voltage protection so I don't have to worry about all that. The one I use has a built in surge protector and if the voltage goes over or under a preset voltage it will automatically adjust the voltage. There is also a methode to set the over/under voltage to what ever I want it to be.

[Old___Slow]

The stored energy of the rotating mass @ 3600 rpm, does that come from the use of the heavy flywheel? :h If I am correct the Inverters do not use the heavy flywheel therefore require less hp to produce wattage.:@ I notice a lag or burden when additional amperage is needed, then the genny returns to normal. How the Inverters handle a increase in demand, don't have a clue. But I ain't no PRO, thus I shouldn't be in this DEEP stuff. Interesting, however.