3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[blkfe]

Congrats on the new rv. Don't forget the valve springs...hehe...

[professor95]

Gentlemen, my world and future RV plans have made a drastic turn.

The 330FKDS Prowler Regal is being stripped of all personal items and power upgrades. Generator is off as are solar panels, inverters, AGM batteries and remote controll units. It is going back to OEM condition.

This Thursday the Regal will leave my driveway for good and in its place will be a '09 Cedar Creek 34SATS 5th wheel.

I once again start over from scratch.

Thoughts on the Chinese genny are running thru my brain. Where to put it, how to work the sound abatement, etc. Many ideas need to be weighed and studied before a final project is undertaken. I now have a 50 amp service, a huge steel front-front compartment with room for all kinks of batteries, inverter(s), transfer switches, solar controllers and the Chinese genny. The present sound enclosure on the Champion 40008 will have to go. Some parts will be reused.

Stay tuned if you are interested. I will keep the thread informed on the successes (and failures) of the generator conversion and resultant performance data.

[professor95]

A twist lock, 4 prong 230 volt outlet with a 30 amp rating should have TWO 30 amp breakers - not two 15 amps. Look at your home load center: A 20 amp double pole 240 volt breaker rated for 20 amps will NOT be made of two 10 amp breakers!

Either the builder of your genny is juggling numbers around by calling a 15 amp outlet a 30 or it is just plain old set up wrong.

Another example, the 50 amp RV service cable contains TWO 120 volt 50 amp circuits. In reality, it is a full 100 amps of service at 120 volts. But, if the voltage used was for a 220 device the current max would still be just 50 amps.

Remember, volts x amps = watts. Watts is POWER. Power will not change.

Watts divided by voltage = amps. Amps will change as voltage changes, but the power remains consistent.

[budracer1]

quabillion wrote:
budracer1

Well from what i can find online, which is only pictures and outlet specs, i would say what they have done is place 15A breakers on the L1 and L2 wires. This comes out to 30A at 240V, to supply the biggest plug on the panel. When you are using 120V all the current is going thru one breaker at 15A, hence your problem. The windings are currently wired in series, which is just fine. Each winding, L1 and L2, will output 3250 watts each, so replacing the 15A breaker with a 30A, and from that breaker wire directly, and only, to a 30A RV outlet. If you "wanted to" the L2 wire can be done the same way and you will have 2 separate 30A RV plugs.
The breakers that are installed seem to be sized to fit the outlets. So remove the outlets (mabey leave one 120V 15A outlet for lights and cords and such) and remove the breakers, install 2 30A RV outlets, and 2 30A breakers, one for each outlet. these outlets will give you 27A each or 3250 watts.

Hope i havent confused you even more.

Well im a bit confused (LOL) but this is exactly the info i was looking for.On my standard household outlets on the front panel says 20 amps so yesterday for kicks i went out and fired it up and hooked up my 5er with a dogbone adapter to the hpousehold outlet and it ran the ac fine.I even turned on the microwave while the ac was running and they didnt pose a problem either so the power is there just needs to be let out right?Forgive me if this is a stupid question but since i already have the twist lock adapter is it possible to wire the receptacle with a 30 amp breaker and get 30amp on the 110 side?By the way i have no need for 240 if that would help at all.

thanks for your help so far i may need drawings before its over but i think we are in the right direction.

Jason

[MrWizard]

OK 6000 watt genny, but it has a 15 amp breaker inline with the 15 amp outlet to protect the outlet and circuit

the power is there but the outlet & CB aren't heavy enough so the CB trips.

[quabillion]

budracer1

Well from what i can find online, which is only pictures and outlet specs, i would say what they have done is place 15A breakers on the L1 and L2 wires. This comes out to 2 15A hots at 120V, to supply the biggest plug on the panel. When you are using 120V all the current is going thru one breaker at 15A, hence your problem. The windings are currently wired in series, which is just fine. Each winding, L1 and L2, will output 3250 watts each, so replacing the 15A breaker with a 30A, and from that breaker wire directly, and only, to a 30A RV outlet. If you "wanted to" the L2 wire can be done the same way and you will have 2 separate 30A RV plugs.
The breakers that are installed seem to be sized to fit the outlets. So remove the outlets (mabey leave one 120V 15A outlet for lights and cords and such) and remove the breakers, install 2 30A RV outlets, and 2 30A breakers, one for each outlet. these outlets will give you 27A each or 3250 watts.

Hope i havent confused you even more.

[MrWizard]

if you have the wiring diagram, and post it we can show you where to make the changes

[budracer1]

Would one of you generator experts allow me to call you to ask a few questions concerning my gen?I bought a 6500 watt powermax a year ago and have not really used it till the bristol race this weekend.After the breaker kicked a thousand times trying to run my ac i decided i had a problem.I called company today and the guy tells me that the 120/240 30amp plug is only putting out 15amps on 110,but of course when i bought it the salesman told me it would run my camper and another one just like it.Anyways im thinking i can rewire the 240 to a 30 amp 110 but i need some help so if someone would let me call them or call me it would be great.336-902-5848

Thanks Jason Bowlin

[professor95]

quabillion wrote:
Professor95;
I dont know if a water jacket would be a cost effective approach, perhaps massive CFM numbers from a box-side fan would be a cooling solution, but the large holes required will let sound come out also. so im not sure whats best. (more)

Interesting that you responded as such. Apparently we are on the same page.

I've considered several water cooling add-ons. But, I don't think I will elaborate too much on them with a open forum.

If you want to swap ideas, drop me a PM.

[professor95]

"GenShed Generator Shelter"

This is very interesting until you reach the bottom of the page and see the price.

The manual is here.

The patent pending magnetic exhaust extension would certainly make it easy to attach such without welding or bolting on. IMHO, such a device could easily be made by a good home-brewer. "Donut" magnets are easily found from a variety of suppliers. Temperature switches (for attic fans), dryer venting, louvers (under eves) and 120 volt fans can be picked up at most any home center like Lowe's.

Guess I should have invested in Rubbermaid plastic garden boxes from Lowe's, drilled a few holes and bolted on a fan. Shucks, at their price I would not need to sell many to make a tidy profit! 🙂

[quabillion]

Professor95;
I dont know if a water jacket would be a cost effective approach, perhaps massive CFM numbers from a box-side fan would be a cooling solution, but the large holes required will let sound come out also. so im not sure whats best.

yes the crane is standard equipment when dealing with a gen of this size, heck i cant even remove the box without it, much less load/unload the gen. the crane was bought at harbor freight. Of course i had to add the 1700# warn winch and base mount myself, but for a total of $350 all together its worth it to my achin back.

the "unused" panel you see is soon to be on the roof, that is once i get those pesky shadow makin A/C's off the roof to open up the space.
(note, i am not going with NO A/C, im am going to remove the "guts" from the units, install these "guts" into custom made boxes, remote mount the condenser coils outside the trailer on the underbelly, and have my A/C but without the shadow on the solar. best of both worlds.) I am a trained/licensed/certified A/C service tech, so messin around in there i feel right at home. PLus i have all the proper tooling. I dont recommend others try this tho, as your mileage may vary. hehe

The hail storms i just dont worry about. if a panel or 2 get broken then that tells me that those hailstones would have punched right through the roof and hit me, were it not for the panel stopping it. i dont worry about stuff out of my control, less stress.

EDIT, i have been thinkin all night about the cooling issue yall are having. Perhaps some "high temp" resistant plastic like tubing wraped around and around and around again on the gen head and cylinder side walls could be used to remove a very large amount of heat that is being given off by the exterior ot the gen and engine. At first i thought copper tubing, but the constant vibrations will surely rub a hole into the line resulting in coolant water spraying on the gen/motor. So its gotta be the plastic like high temp resistant stuff. Also the tubing should be able to withstand the heat with a loss of coolant and not fail/melt or catch on fire. I dont know off hand of a product that meets these criteria. As far as cooling the water that can be done easily by using a fan and raidaitor from say a honda civic, they are small and have the fan mounted to the rad already. Local junkyard should have that. The last piece would be some type of coolant pump, perhaps a 120v garden fountan type pump that would be connected to the gen output leads, thereby pumping coolant whenever the gen is running.

Some airflow to the gen box still must be provided, but perhaps with this cooling jacket the amount of air could be provided by a pair of 4 inch 120v fans, powered the same as the coolant pump.

This could just be a bunch of who-eee in PRACTICE, but it sure sounds good in THEORY.

[professor95]

bobandcat wrote:
Has anyone tried the hardbacker board for noise control in a generator compartment? How well did it work?

Professor95 suggested using it quite a while back and I don't remember seeing any positive or negative reports about it.

I have continued to experiment with it. Here are some of the pros and cons:

Pros -

• inexpensive
• water proof
• easily cut or drilled with standard power tools
• can be painted with latex enamels
• very good sound reduction qualities
• fireproof and unafected by high heat
• easy to seal with fiber reinforced duct seal

Cons -

• heavier than steel panels
• panels are easily broken if hit
• dulls saw blades quickly and produces dust when cutting
• if left unsealed, can absorb spilled gasoline

Overall comments -

Available in both 1/4" and 1/2" thickness. 1/2" is stronger but adds considerable weight - bad if a portable unit is desired.

No welding or bending required - will not rust.

Joints are best if made of 1" aluminum angle - especially for the corners on the outside.

I need to totally complete and paint the enclosure I have been prototyping on my 7,800 watt Champion for show-and-tell. (That and a 1,000 other unfinished projects and home repairs).

Personally, I believe the James Hardie concrete bakerboard is the ideal material for a semi-stationary genny built by a home-brewing guy without access to sheet metal cutting, punching, bending and braking tools. Steel panels also need insulation in some areas for heat reduction and sound absorbtion. The concrete panels appear to do well without added insulation.

I would NOT advise using any brand of concrete backerboard other than the James Hardie brand. Other brands I have seen are rough, have sloppy edges when cut and are held together with an outer fabric or fiberglass mesh. The James Hardie brand is a dense, smooth board without the above undesirable features.

BTW, if one wanted to laminate the 1/4" board with a continious layer of fiberglass cloth and polyester resin (not angel hair or matting) the result would produce a steel-strong board with all the original chacteristics listed in pros.

[professor95]

quabillion wrote:

Extremely interesting and inovative. You are a man well aligned with my way of thinking - repurposing "junk" into something useful.

I note a radiator on your generator which means your engine is water cooled. This makes designing an enclosure much easier to accomplish. Perhaps what we need to do is design a water jacket and liquid cooling system for our air cooled engines?

Just curious, is the crane standard equipment for the genny? 🙂

Actually, I could use one of these as well. Did you make it too?

That is alot of solar on your roof. I thought I was doing good with 360 watts of solar managed by a Xantrex 40 amp controller (future expansion) and 180 AH of AGM storage under the camper with a 1200 watt inverter tucked into a rear cabinet. I hope to double the solar panel capacity this winter. The "unused" panel you have laying against the front of your camper would be helpful to add to my array - do you need my shipping address? 😄

Hail storms make me extremely nervous with that expensive glass on my roof. I hope you are in an area that hail is infrequent.

Thank you for sharing your work. I tremendously enjoy seeing such accomplishments, especially when they are of your own creation rather than a turn-key store bought design.

[quabillion]

Old & Slow wrote:


come on in lurker box builders and give it to us. your contribution will help us roll the stone.

floyd

Well my box isnt exactly for a 3000 watt chinese gen, i feel some pics will help others decide the path that they want.

Started out with a bare engine and gen head, i built the base out of welded perforated 2" square tubing. i then welded the frame to hold the "box" panels out of 1" angle iron. Attach the sheet metal skin, IIRC i used 18GA galvinazed. on the inside of the box i glued some 1" thick foam insulation boards from home depot, to take that "twang" out of the sheet metal. to control the gen i made a control panel from an old road sign, found at the junkyard btw. the wires and such in the picture is what im talking about. i am a fulltimer so i need a dependable gen, yet i dont want to listen to gen noise all the time, so the box seemed like a logical choice for noise control. before the box my spl at 20 feet 74dba on the air outlet side, after the box was installed this level dropped to 60dba. in other words it went from a roaring rumble to a swoosh type sound. heres the pics

gettin ready to lift box

have to remowe this panel to allow the box to pass over the exhaust
oh no the gen is naked!! hehe
inside of the box looking at control panel
the air outlet screen

[bobandcat]

Has anyone tried the hardbacker board for noise control in a generator compartment? How well did it work?

Professor95 suggested using it quite a while back and I don't remember seeing any positive or negative reports about it.