3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[cmg3500]

Nevermind I found the answer back on page 336.
It is a home depot model by chqampion.
Thanks any way.

[cmg3500]

I figured it out

[professor95]

Several PM's have come my way recently over the comments I made about the 50 amp RV power source actually being 100 amps at 120 volts. Some writers are surprised, others argumentative.

For those who have written, and those who have not and are still wondering, please let me add this:

Wattage is a measurement of power or how much work electrical energy can accomplish. I frequently told my first year students remembering the formula for power was as easy as "PIE". Or.... P=I*E where P=POWER in watts, I=current in amperes and E=Electromotive Force in volts. Typically, I drew the formula on the whiteboard as:




Thus, it was easy for them to see P/I=E; P/E=I and I*E=P

A Chinese generator rated for 3,500 watts will produce 3,500 watts at either 240 volts or 120 volts (provided it is wired for such). The POWER will not change. But, if the voltage changes, amperage will also change so that the power remains at 3,500 watts. Same is true if amperage changes.

Before someone jumps on the flaws in the above statement - a typical generator will NOT always produce 3,500 watts. The power will change according to load placed on the genny. Most likely it will be an increase in current or amperage that causes wattage or power to raise to the maximum it can produce.

Play with the numbers a minute.

3500 watts/120 volts = 29.17 amperes

3500 watts/240 volts = 14.58 amperes

Power does not change. We maintain the ability to do the same amount of work.

Let's look at a 30 ampere, 120 volt TT power feed.

Using the formula E*I=P we arrive at 3,600 watts of power. This is the maximum power we can expect to draw for the appliances in a 30 amp TT.

Now, let's look at a 50 amp, 120 volt TT power feed the same way we look at a 30 amp TT power feed.

Once again, using the formula E*I=P we arrive at 6,000 watts.

Ironically, this 6,000 watts is where understanding seems to stop for many RV owners.

The "trip up" is that, unlike the 30 ampere feed, the 50 ampere feed has TWO completely independent circuit breakers tied together with a handle in the power supply box. What we are really doing is providing TWO 120 volt, 50 ampere feeds. Thus, the total available power to a so called 50 ampere RV is really 12,000 watts!

So, why is it called a 50 amp feed rather than a 100 amp feed?

I believe it goes back to "tradition" to rate load capacity according to the maximum measurable AC voltage on a service entrance panel's bus bars.

Unless your home is extremely large or depends upon bookoos of electrical energy, you most likely have a service entrance panel (SEP) rated for 200 Amps. This rating is based on the assumption you will be using all 240 volt power - which you will not. The kicker here is that your home panel is in reality a 400 amp/120 volt panel as well as a 200 amp/240 volt panel. Both are equal to the same power; 48,000 watts.

Most of us know that if you walk into an electrical supply store and ask for a 400 amp SEP that is exactly what they will give you - a box with a double pole 400 amp main breaker – not one with a double pole 200 amp main breaker. Again, tradition dictates how we identify certain devices in the electrical world.

Back to the 50 amp TT....... Even if we do not use 240 VAC for any appliances in the TT, 240 volts is there!

Rather than having alternating buss bars as in a residential SEP so that a double breaker side-by-side will supply 240 volts, the 50 amp SEP in a RV does NOT alternate the buss bars. In my RV’s SEP, all of the breakers for one of the two legs feeding the SEP are on a buss to the left of the main breaker, and all of the breakers on the right are on the other buss. A RV SEP is not designed for 240 volt appliances - but, if you lay a volt meter's probes between the left and right buss of a RV SEP, you will indeed measure 240 volts AC.

So guys, I'm not off my rocker. The so called 50 amp feed for an RV really is giving you 100 amps - and that is a lot of power for a RV! But, the 30 amp feed is indeed just 30 amps.

Confusing, isn't it?

[professor95]

gnolivos wrote:
Professor,

I just re-read your answer(s) and I think you misunderstood my question... ! I would NOT be changing the Outlet on the generator! I was refering simply to using one of those cords that have an RV plug on one end (male), and a 15 amp regular female plug on the other end...

professor95 wrote:
For the safety of yourself and others, it is best not to be changing brakers or outlets without completing the process and upgrading all components in the circuit, including the size of the supply wiring.

I'm curious - just what is it you want to accomplish in the final analysis?

Well, apparently I did misunderstand. Sometimes I find myself reading things into questions that are not really there. I guess that is one of the negatives to simplex written communications vs full duplex verbal communications.

All of the changing outlets and breakers stuff aside, I believe I did answer the simpler part of your question. That is using an adapter that has a 30 amp plug on one end and a standard 15 amp outlet on the other does limit your load to 15 amps. Sure, you can draw more amps thru the 15 amp outlet than it is rated for, but doing so will create heat in the 15 amp outlet that can lead to an unsafe situation.

[professor95]

Matthew_B wrote:
professor95: I want to dig into your thoughts on the 120 vs 240 on the C46540 when powering a 50A RV.

The overload output at 120V is 33A and continuous is 29A. Would there really be any advantage in feeding the RV 240V? As long as there are no 240V loads in the RV, then everything will work, and AFAIK, very few RVs have 240V loads. The 50A rated neutral won't be overloaded since the output is only 33A. The EMS (if equipped) would also consider the generator a 120V / 30A source if fed 120V, and help limit the draw to right about the output of the generator. The biggest upside would be the elimination of worry about balancing the loads between the two legs.

IMHO, the only time you'd want to switch that switch to 240V is if you need to run a 240V appliance in a house. My previous home backup generator was a 4.5kW model, and I was always running into balance issues. I sure wish it had a switch to just make it a 120V. Now that I have a 10kW, the balance seems to be a non issue.

You have it right. Digging into my thoughts is unnecessary.

For a small generator like the C46540 the choice is really a non-issue. Personally, I would much rather have a parallel 120V than a split 240 volt ( a single 29 amp feed vs two 14.5 amp feeds.) If you were using the 240 volt twist lock outlet to a 50 amp RV with the C46540 you would probably not be able to run an A/C.

I have most likely unintentionally kicked open an ant hill next to a nude sunbather with my previous comments.

What I was really trying to convey is that a 50 amp hookup to a RV is nothing more than a standard 240 volt 50 amp feed. It is what happens in the RV's breaker box that makes it two 120 volt feeds at 50 amps each. If one wanted to have 240 volts in a 50 amp RV it would be easy to accomplish.

I am also aware that some RV owners with 50 amp service do not realize that they actually have a 100 amp service at 120 volts. Truthfully, calling what is commonly know as 50 amp RV power is wrong since 240 volts is not used in a RV. There are TWO 50 amp 120 VAC feeds vs. a single 30 amp 120 VAC feed on smaller RVs. The difference between a 30 amp RV feed and what is known as a 50 amp RV feed is actually 70 amps - not 20 amps!

Once again, you have it right and certainly used a polite way of asking what the heck I was writing about. I might have been better off to let sleeping dogs lie with this 240/120, 50 amp/30 amp thing - especially when it comes to the small Chinese gennys.

Any way, we had a fantastic weekend at Chippokes Plantation State Park in Suffok, VA - a truly beautiful place to go. And, we had a 50 amp.. er, 100 amp... oh heck!... one of those straight up and down 4 blade power connections.

[Matthew_B]

professor95: I want to dig into your thoughts on the 120 vs 240 on the C46540 when powering a 50A RV.

The overload output at 120V is 33A and continuous is 29A. Would there really be any advantage in feeding the RV 240V? As long as there are no 240V loads in the RV, then everything will work, and AFAIK, very few RVs have 240V loads. The 50A rated neutral won't be overloaded since the output is only 33A. The EMS (if equipped) would also consider the generator a 120V / 30A source if fed 120V, and help limit the draw to right about the output of the generator. The biggest upside would be the elimination of worry about balancing the loads between the two legs.

IMHO, the only time you'd want to switch that switch to 240V is if you need to run a 240V appliance in a house. My previous home backup generator was a 4.5kW model, and I was always running into balance issues. I sure wish it had a switch to just make it a 120V. Now that I have a 10kW, the balance seems to be a non issue.

[gnolivos]

Professor,

I just re-read your answer(s) and I think you misunderstood my question... ! I would NOT be changing the Outlet on the generator! I was refering simply to using one of those cords that have an RV plug on one end (male), and a 15 amp regular female plug on the other end...

professor95 wrote:
For the safety of yourself and others, it is best not to be changing brakers or outlets without completing the process and upgrading all components in the circuit, including the size of the supply wiring.

I'm curious - just what is it you want to accomplish in the final analysis?

[professor95]

Dixie Flyer wrote:
Question? When would you switch to 240 Volts on the the model C46540 3500/4000W? If you had your camper hooked up to the generator and then switched to 240v it would fry everything in it wouldn't it?

There is a lot to explain here.

240 volts is addative on these generators. It requires two series connected 120 volt windings. The potential between the two 120 volt windings (without neutral) is 240 volts. When the potential of either of th 240 volt windings is measured to neutral, they are 120 volts.

Most small appliances up to 20 amps in the USA only require 120 volts. Campers are the exception at 30 amps at 120 volts.

Over 20 amps and USA appliances shift to 240 volts. The irony is a 20 amp 120 volt appliance draws 2,400 watts and requires a 12AWG copper wire for power feed. The same appliance wired to operate on 240 volts will still produce a power of 2,400 watts, but will only pull 10 ampres! A much smaller (14AWG) wiring can be used.

Some appliances use what we call "straight 240". These appliances do NOT use the neutral center tap common on 120/240 appliances. An example is a residential electric water heater. It only needs the two hot wires and a grounding wire (no neutral).

My new fiver has a 50 amp supply. In reality it is a 100 amp supply - or 70 amps higher than what I had before! There are two independent 50 amp 120 volt circuits feeding the service panel - in reality it is a conventional 240 volt outlet. Since 240 is not used by the RV, the bus bars in the circuit box are designed so that they cannot be double bridged (as in a residence), which would allow for 240 volt appliances. But, the plug and outlet are identical to a 4-wire 240 volt electric range. The changes are in the camper, not the supply box. If an electric range were plugged into the 50 amp camper supply box, it would work off of 240 volts. The RV would work equally as well when plugged into a 240 volt range outlet.

Also, properly wired, a 50 amp supply RV will work extremely well off of the 240 volt outlet on a large generator. For example, if I could stand the noise, my Champ 7,800 could power each 50 amp leg on my RV to a max of 40 amps (again, each) from the 240 volt outlet on the generator.

Bottom line? Unless you know exactly what you are doing, leave it alone! Too much of a chance of messing up and frying something by tinkering with it. (I think I will throw a credential in here. In addition to holding an aging 38 year old EE degree, I am a licensed Master Electrician who has taught NEC Code compliance classes to budding electricians and homeowners)

[professor95]

RedRS wrote:
Fantastic, cheers Prof. So the little dog house, is it made from Corex? Like corrugated plastic type stuff?

Actually, it is made of foam fanfold board sold in home stores for sheathing/insulation under vinyl siding. It is 1/4" thick.

The nice thing about the thin, lightweight panels (other than the fact that they worked) is that in a RV, they can be folded up and slipped under a RV bed mattress when not in use. Duct tape and a few rocks work well for joining them together and to the ground. If it rains, the dog house also keeps the genny dry.

You can go one step further and place a vertical panel about two feet away in front of the opening to further reduce sound on the open side. Bushes also work well.

Make sure you leave plenty of air space between the genny and panel top/sides.

Sometimes the simplest ideas are the best ideas. Readers, don't turn your nose up at this box because it is easy to make. It really works to reduce generator sound levels on the closed sides.

[gnolivos]

Professor:

I have never found a cord or extension cord for the 120V outlet, that will handle more than 15 amps. So, if I were to plug a 15 amp cord to that 20 Amp circuit, and eventually pull 2400 Watts with various appliances, it would burn the cord!

[professor95]

gnolivos wrote:
Interesting... you say this because 15 amp x 120V = 1800Watts. Which begs the question: How come this generator allows to pull 2400Watts from the regular (non RV) 120V outlet? That would also melt any 15 amp cable hooked up to the outlet!

professor95 wrote:

gnolivos wrote:
Is it safe to use a 3 prong 30Amp to 15 Amp adapter (RV plug) on this unit, and then power up regular 120V appliances to the full 3,500 Watts?

No. With the 15 amp adapter you should not exceed 1,800 watts. The adapter will overheat and possibly even melt.

An outlet rated for 20 ampres will safely handly up to 2,400 watts (20 aqmps x 120 volts). That is the rating on the outlet, not the device plugged into it. Normally, the device pluged in also has a specific watt (load maximum rating) and thus will not exceed the rating of the plug-in device. Of course, some choose to ignore these ratings and try to plug a 20 amp device into a 10 amp cord. The result is heat, which can melt insulation, create shorted wires, start fires, expose live wires that can shock or electrocute not to mention wasting a lot of energy in the form of the excess heat.

For the safety of yourself and others, it is best not to be changing brakers or outlets without completing the process and upgrading all components in the circuit, including the size of the supply wiring.

I'm curious - just what is it you want to accomplish in the final analysis?

[gnolivos]

Interesting... you say this because 15 amp x 120V = 1800Watts. Which begs the question: How come this generator allows to pull 2400Watts from the regular (non RV) 120V outlet? That would also melt any 15 amp cable hooked up to the outlet!

professor95 wrote:

gnolivos wrote:
Is it safe to use a 3 prong 30Amp to 15 Amp adapter (RV plug) on this unit, and then power up regular 120V appliances to the full 3,500 Watts?

No. With the 15 amp adapter you should not exceed 1,800 watts. The adapter will overheat and possibly even melt.

[gnolivos]

Professor:

Actually, I am referring to the use of the regular 120V outlet, (not the 120V RV outlet!). The manual states that from the regular 120V outlet, we can pull up to 2400 Watts (it is a 20 Amp circuit). I would like to pull full 3500W from that outlet. Possible with rewire?

professor95 wrote:

gnolivos wrote:
Hello Professor,

The model is C46540 3500/4000W ! Any help much appreciated!

No rewire is necessary. Just flip the switch on the front panel.

[RedRS]

professor95 wrote:

RedRS wrote:
Thanks for your prompt reply. Yes "straight" 220 volt AC and yes the little fan heater will probably be something like 1500w. All I wanted to ensure was that actual tools I was using didn't suffer power loss from everything else I was going to try and run because tools are the whole point of turning the garage into a work shop! And yes please, a picture of you gennie house would be great.

Links to photos are below. This is about as simple as it gets, and yes it does significantly reduce sound levels on the closed sides.

Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

Fantastic, cheers Prof. So the little dog house, is it made from Corex? Like corrugated plastic type stuff?

[tvman44]

jimmyfred wrote:

Dixie Flyer wrote:
Question? When would you switch to 240 Volts on the the model C46540 3500/4000W? If you had your camper hooked up to the generator and then switched to 240v it would fry everything in it wouldn't it?

...........In my opinion, NO! A 240 plug has 4 connectors , 2 hots @ 120 each ,1 ground , and 1 neutral . A 30 amp connector has 3 , 1 hot @120 volts , neutral , and ground .
.......... All trailers with 50 amp service , have (2) separate 25 amp circuits that should be somewhat balanced but separate with their respective loads . These circuits are Never wired together(share a common ground) so the (2) 120 volt hot wires combine to create a 240 volt circuit . , jf

That is 2 50 amps circuits not 2 25's.