cancel
Showing results forย 
Search instead forย 
Did you mean:ย 

3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy


For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โ€œcloningโ€ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โ€œrunningโ€ display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โ€œSupposedlyโ€ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โ€œabove average qualityโ€ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โ€œavailability listingโ€.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ€“ most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โ€œreasonablyโ€ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โ€œlook alikeโ€ eng...






















Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.
10,029 REPLIES 10,029

saycheese
Explorer
Explorer
drfife wrote:
I transport my generator on a front receiver hitch tray. I can lift the Champion from the ground to the tray by myself. I'm not a strong man. Of course it's much easier to lift with 2 people.

The Champion I have supplies 29 amps continuous to the RV plug. You won't find anything near that on the ones you are considering.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Thanks. I finally broke down and ordered the Champion. At $269 with the promotional discount, I simply couldn't pass up a deal like this. Shipping is free to my local Cabelas store for pick up, but I did have to pay the tax.

I looked at all kinds of generators.....even this one, but with all the factors considered, the Champ won out hands down. Now I can charge my batteries, boondock, and use it at home. This thing will do it all!

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
saycheese wrote:
Good points drfife. I'm actually leaning toward one of the many 3000w no name inverter genneys now being sold on ebay. I like the Champion. It's certainly a great value, but I can't seem to get past the weight and bulk of this and other open frame units. The one I'm currently looking at weighs only 62 lb compared to The Champ's 100+.


Please do not construe this to be an intentionally negative response. It is just an old man giving unasked for advice. Think about it before you let loose of that hard earned cash.

Inverter generators are extremely nice. They use high frequency 3 phase alternators driven by a gas engine and invert (convert) the power via an extremely complex microprocessor controlled module into a very clean, 60 Hz sine wave with rock solid voltage regulation. They are smaller, lighter and generally quieter than their conventional counterparts.

The downside is that if they fail very few small engine repair shops or home fix-it mechanics are able to make the needed repairs. The inverter module is for the most part non-repairable and must be exchanged for a remanufactured or new unit. The cost of these modules can run several hundred dollars โ€“ often more than half of the cost of a new generator.

This particular thread has very little information on the no-name low cost inverter generators. No knowledge as to whom (in China) is the lead manufacturer or how common and interchangeable the inverter or engine components may be. There are also rumors that may be more fact than fiction reporting patent infringements from these no-name inverter generators manufacturers that are being aggressively pursued by Honda. What will happen to these products if Honda prevails in their lawsuits?

The Internet sales outlet promises parts and services for a โ€œlifetimeโ€. Of course, we all know how long a lifetime can be in todayโ€™s economy. The profit margins of these e-bay sellers are not very large. They depend upon volume sales and often must order full shipping containers of generators from China to receive the cost discounts needed to be profitable. Competition and cash flow have a lot to do with just exactly how long their lifetime will be.

I am inclined to believe that if one wants to invest in an inverter type generator that spending a little more to get a Kipor, (AllPower is Kipor built), Honda, Yamaha or even a Boily is money well spent. These units have established their place in the market, proven their stamina and performance, have sufficient service centers across the country and most likely will be here this time next year. There is no question of their parenthood and even if repair parts are expensive, they are available.

Yes, a Pay-Pal add-on warranty gives some additional protection, but that protection will not prevent you from the possibility of a ruined camping adventure due to a knocked out no-name inverter generator that you cannot find repair service or parts for.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
drfife wrote:
I transport my generator on a front receiver hitch tray


On the front of your tow vehicle?
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
saycheese wrote:
I'm also concerned with "dirty power" (as it has been described in my research). Is this a concern?.... and... How does the Champ compare?


Virtually all of the non-inverter generators will produce a waveform that may be called "dirty power". There will be noise on the waveform and a sine wave that has a slightly different shape than you will receive from an inverter genny.

Unless you are running some extremely sensitive medical equipment that depends on the clock cycle of a conventional sine wave there is nothing that will be harmed by a conventional generator.

The major issue is a deviation in the signal frequency by a few hertz due to varying engine speed. Unless you have a device, like a clock, that depends on the line frequency it is nothing to be concerned about.

There are some microwave ovens that have not performed well when powered from a conventional genny. Apparently they see the waveform differently and may run at double speed.

We also had a report of an old ferro resonate converter that did not perform well with a conventional genny. Fortunately, this issue seemed to be confined to older Champion motor homes.

Overall all, air conditioners, TV sets, DVD players, computers and such work without problems. Most electronic devices like computers and TV sets now use a switching power supply that is pretty much immune to "dirty power".

The Champions with the cleanest signal are the 120 volt only models like the Home Depot unit or the UltraFab 40008. Total harmonic distortion on these models is less than 4%.

The 46540 RV model has a slightly higher THD rating of 6%.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
Prof,

Perhaps others count in their own way?

Hijack? Maybe? Is it all that important to cover over someone else's post?


What in the world are you refering to? :h
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

saycheese
Explorer
Explorer
I'm also concerned with "dirty power" (as it has been described in my research). Is this a concern?.... and... How does the Champ compare?

drfife
Explorer
Explorer
saycheese wrote:
...I can't seem to get past the weight and bulk of this and other open frame units. The one I'm currently looking at weighs only 62 lb compared to The Champ's 100+...

I transport my generator on a front receiver hitch tray. I can lift the Champion from the ground to the tray by myself. I'm not a strong man. Of course it's much easier to lift with 2 people.

The Champion I have supplies 29 amps continuous to the RV plug. You won't find anything near that on the ones you are considering.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Russell
'12 GMC Sierra 3500HD SRW
'13 Excel Winslow 34IKE

saycheese
Explorer
Explorer
Good points drfife. I'm actually leaning toward one of the many 3000w no name inverter genneys now being sold on ebay. I like the Champion. It's certainly a great value, but I can't seem to get past the weight and bulk of this and other open frame units. The one I'm currently looking at weighs only 62 lb compared to The Champ's 100+.

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
Prof,

Perhaps others count in their own way?

Hijack? Maybe? Is it all that important to cover over someone else's post?

drfife
Explorer
Explorer
saycheese wrote:
Like this one?

link

Also, where may I find that commercial adapter online?

Buy a Champion 46540.

I costs a few $ more than the one in your link. But it produces more watts and has a built in 30 amp outlet.

Many folks here have one.

Don't reinvent the wheel. Get a Champion.

You can also buy them locally at Tractor Supply:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay_10551_10001_54036_______14151|...

Cabella's has a Champion that is RV ready with 30 amp outlet for $299:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?type=product&cmCat=Related_IPL_523103&id=...
Russell
'12 GMC Sierra 3500HD SRW
'13 Excel Winslow 34IKE

saycheese
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
There is also a commercial adapter that used both parts of the duplex outlet to convert to the 30 amp TT outlet. I cannot say if it will work OK on the unit you are considering as I have not tested it.

Just a comment - the unit you show on e-bay will not be any quiter running an A/C with a 65 dBA rating than an open frame Chinese genny. (it may sound quiter at low loads) Unless weight is a major consideration I would stick with the time proven and very durable Chinese 3,000 watt class open frame units for running an A/C. Parts are also very easy to find and less expensive should they be needed.


Like this one?

link

Also, where may I find that commercial adapter online?

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Salvo wrote:


Are you the man to see about gen packaging? Do you advise using a fan? Or a full enclosure? I've operated the gen in this configuration for a duration of 2 years now.

Thanks,
Sal


IMHO, from an engineering approach, Brad has completed the best thought out and designed enclosure for use in a confined space to:

  • reduce noise
  • reduce vibration
  • effectively divert exhaust gases
  • safely remote the fuel tank
  • provide normal operating temps of engine and electronics
  • allow access for normal service and maintenance
  • insulate surrounding walls and objects from engine heat conduction


He is sometimes a little modest on his accomplishments ๐Ÿ™‚

The issue of cooling or adequate air circulation is much easier to accomplish and less of an engineering challenge. I did a series of tests several years back that led me to these conclusions. While these are specific to the 3,000 watt class of open frame generators, much is applicable to other designs and frames.

Key to the whole thing is to keep the air exiting the cooling part of the generator and engine less than 160 degrees F.(exclusive of exhaust temperatures). The 160 degree limit was derived by the apparent breakdown temp of the AVR and the wiring insulation used in the open frame class of Chinese 3,000 watt generators. The absolute maximum temperature allowable in such an environment is 190 degrees F. The 160 degree measurement point was in the air channel under the connection point of the generator and engine.

When a generator is placed in an enclosed, or semi-enclosed cabinet we have to be sure that it can maintain "normal expected" cooling air flow and exchange without recirculating heated air, heating objects adjacent to the generator that will radiate stored heat (i.e. muffler, etc) back to the cooling air or recirculate heated exhaust gasses.

Key to this is allowing the generator and engine components to receive air to their respective cooling inlet points without any impediments. On the Chinese open frame generators these two points are the engine shroud openings around the recoil starter and the extreme end of the generator housing.

The discharge air points must also be maintained.

On the 3,000 watt class of Chinese generators the major discharge point of cooling air is directly under the generator at the connection of the engine and generator. At this point there is an internal fan for the generator that pulls air into the end housing and out the bottom. An adequate opening at this location must be maintained.

The addition of a fan capable of high air flow and static pressures under the generator at this hot air exhaust point will enhance cooling by sustaining adequate air flow. Such a fan will also remove much of the heated air in the enclosure that is radiated up and outward from the engine.

Heat from the muffler and exhaust pipe can be a major barrier to proper cooling inside an enclosure. Normal cooling of the muffler is by radiation rather than circulation. If designing an enclosure where the muffler is not remote an additional air intake must be added at the top over the muffler and behind the muffler to pull outside cooling air across the large metal surface. These openings should be approximately 2โ€ in diameter. An enclosure with the muffler intact will need an exhaust fan.

I found that little, if anything is to be gained in a small enclosure by blowing air into the enclosure. In larger enclosures (i.e. back of a pick-up truck camper shell) the use of an open air fan to assist in cabinet air flow may be beneficial.

Photos show cooling air flow patterns on a 3,000 watt open frame Chinese generator that must not be altered or blocked.





Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

Salvo
Explorer
Explorer
blkfe wrote:

Jeez...cool old scope...how long does it take to warm up.....
Brad


Yea, but how may scopes, in addition to the waveform, provide a portrait of self? :C

That was state of the art in 1968: dual electron gun (no chop or alt), @10 MHz!

Are you the man to see about gen packaging? Do you advise using a fan? Or a full enclosure? I've operated the gen in this configuration for a duration of 2 years now.

Thanks,
Sal

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
Ok floyd, I missed it, thanks for the ref, i found it.
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
Old & Slow wrote:
Prof,

You have loosened the reign just a little to enclude the new Chinese 3000w Inverters. That's good. These new (No Name) units are interesting. A person can stick a toe into the market without much skin in the game. Less than $700 WOW. $900.00 for electric start with remote control.
Didn't take long for R & D to be covered.


Loosened the reigns?

I know nothing about this genny and only attembted to answer his quesions. Without some real emperial data I would not recomend this aforementiod geny. Still a lot to lean!



Now Prof',

If I could spel like a Professor, might not have hung it up @ 50 to see de world. No worke for me in the last 24 years, so brain dead now and thin. he he