mrfixit454 wrote:
"The float needle is and always will be a potential failure point on gravity feed fuel systems that have several gallons of gasoline pushing down on them.
Of course, all one needs to do is turn off the petcock as directed and warned in the manual to almost totally reduce the incidence of leakage."
"
Have you guys considered an electric fuel transfer pump to avoid the gravity feed/needle and seat issue? a remote tank outside the "cave" could be used. A tank system kind of like the toyhaulers. The concern then becomes whether or not you want to be having dinner with a tank under you!
No need.
My genny's primary fuel source is LPG from either the RV tanks or a remote outside 5 gal tank. The use of gasoline is a secondary fuel in the event I am in a remote area where LPG refils or exchange tanks are not available.
The modified fuel cap I made solves some safety issues for MY SPECIFIC APPLICATION. (Meaning it may not work for your application.)
The OEM gas tank cap on virtually all Chinese built 3,000 watt class open frame generators are identical.
The OEM cap is permanently vented. It has a rubber seal at the bottom. The inner part of the tank has a baffle to reduce the incidence of fuel splashing or leaking around the cap. Unless the tank is overfilled fuel rarely leaks around the cap. But, overfilling the tank will lead to seepage when the generator is transported. Fumes will escape the cap to whatever compartment the generator is placed in.
If the cap is unvented, gravity fuel feed to the carburetor will stop as tank vacuum increases. Many Honda and Kipor generators have tank caps that can be sealed for transport, and vented for usage.
The following tank cap modification is NOT for everyone.
The modification may solve one problem and create new ones.
All parts for the mod were found at Loweโs as off-the-shelf materials. Seal All sealant was purchased from local RV dealer parts department.
An unvented or sealed gas tank will not leak fuel. But, as temperature changes, the gas will expand or shrink in the tank. Temperature rise will cause a significant pressure increase inside the tank which could easily cause fuel leakage from carburetor needle seat and fuel bowl if the petcock is left open.
In my application, I DO NOT fill the gas tank with more than 3 gallons (3/4 full).
I made a fitting to attach a fuel line hose to the butterfly valve and vent the hose to the outside with the valve open to keep gasoline fumes out of โThe Caveโ
If desired, I can close the butterfly valve. (Just like Honda or Kipor)
An added benefit is that this cap allows for vacuum fuel transfer from a remote tank, like a 6 gallon boat tank, to give extended run times.
Photos were made while using an old tank as a test. I do not currently have photos of the genny in my front compartment (โThe Caveโ) with cap and vent hose installed. Will make those when the rain stops ๐
Allow SealAll sealant to dry 24 hours before first use.
Do not use RTV as a substitute sealant โ it will break down over time with gasoline.
Fuel gauge needs to be chalked with sealant to assure full tank sealing, especially if using a vacuum transfer tank.
My vent hose is not shown in these photos.
Do not forget to seal the fuel gauge as well. It is not air tight as installed.
I've recently been doing a little research and some modifications to my own project.
The float needle is and always will be a potential failure point on gravity feed fuel systems that have several gallons of gasoline pushing down on them.
Of course, all one needs to do is turn off the petcock as directed and warned in the manual to almost totally reduce the incidence of leakage.
Attached to that warning are others โ like do not store indoors with gasoline. Of course, many of us ignore that warning all the time and put portable gasoline powered equipment in utility closets and basements all the time. In reality, not the best place to store such equipment.
Other warning labels specifically tell us the dangers of operating a generator with a gasoline engine inside a building or even outside where it is raining or subject to flooding.
As one who seemingly has a history of getting fingers into the path of moving saw blades, I cannot unequivocally say that I am smart enough to always remember and abide by safety rules. But, I inheritently HATE mandated safety devices, guards, interlocks, etc. and often find these devices can actually make a tool more dangerous! I admit it..... I often remove them from my tools and equipment.
Anyway, moving right along with the intended subject....
Still, I do read the warnings, think about the consequences and do the best my brain will allow to either assure safe environments under compromised operational circumstances or avoid the situation all together.
Such is the case with CO and leaking gasoline for my RV compartment mounted genny. New to the controls group for the cave is a modified CO alarm that will pull in a small reed relay when the piezo buzzer begins to blast out a CO warning that automatically shuts down the engine via the low oil shutdown transition diode. Thus, should any CO from the exhaust creep into the RV living area the genny engine will be killed removing the CO source.
As for fuel spillage, I have always favored LPG for RV use. But in this application I decided to allow gasoline as well. The genny tank cap is not spill proof on the 3,000 watt Chinese genny tanks. Thus, I have designed a new filler spout and cap that do not leak and can be completely closed to all external air venting when in transport.
Both of these devices will be shared on this thread with instructions on how they can be easily made. I do not believe safety issues should be hidden under a basket, but rather should be freely shared.
As for the fuel petcock, research is being conducted into using a model that is opened and closed by manifold vacuum. Thus, the petcock becomes โautomaticโ.
I donโt want to make this too long, but of interest on this topic is this little thing called UL 2201.
UL 2201 is an effort to develop standards for portable generators that reduce the possibility of CO poisoning and electrical shock from damp locations. Reading all of the links and associated patents takes a considerable amount of time, but do provide an interesting read.
In summary, it appears that a UL standard is just around the corner that could significantly change the construction, appearance and, of course, cost of portable generators.
We do, as Americans, need agencies to devise rules to protect ourselves from our own stupidity and failure to follow product warnings.
For now, it appears that only a new round of warning labels and manual rewrites will be necessary โ but that will inevitability change as time moves forward. The standards originally presented have been withdrawn.
Take a few minutes to check out these links:
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
Voluntary Standards
Carbon Monoxide
Generators, Portable
Report test and memo on portable generators and CO are here
CPSC Staff Reports, Memoranda and Contracts
(you will need to visit the actual URL to check out any topics not coded as active by color change above)
And to close it all off, take a peek at what Honda received a patent for in April. You can find the text for the invention here that goes with the attached PDF.
Is this Hondaโs answer to UL 2201? Could beโฆโฆโฆโฆ
Like I said, It is an expectation that we come up with standards, codes, or laws that protect us from ourselves. Expect it soon!
The float needle is and always will be a potential failure point on gravity feed fuel systems that have several gallons of gasoline pushing down on them.
Of course, all one needs to do is turn off the petcock as directed and warned in the manual to almost totally reduce the incidence of leakage.
Attached to that warning are others โ like do not store indoors with gasoline. Of course, many of us ignore that warning all the time and put portable gasoline powered equipment in utility closets and basements all the time. In reality, not the best place to store such equipment.
Other warning labels specifically tell us the dangers of operating a generator with a gasoline engine inside a building or even outside where it is raining or subject to flooding.
As one who seemingly has a history of getting fingers into the path of moving saw blades, I cannot unequivocally say that I am smart enough to always remember and abide by safety rules. But, I inheritently HATE mandated safety devices, guards, interlocks, etc. and often find these devices can actually make a tool more dangerous! I admit it..... I often remove them from my tools and equipment.
Anyway, moving right along with the intended subject....
Still, I do read the warnings, think about the consequences and do the best my brain will allow to either assure safe environments under compromised operational circumstances or avoid the situation all together.
Such is the case with CO and leaking gasoline for my RV compartment mounted genny. New to the controls group for the cave is a modified CO alarm that will pull in a small reed relay when the piezo buzzer begins to blast out a CO warning that automatically shuts down the engine via the low oil shutdown transition diode. Thus, should any CO from the exhaust creep into the RV living area the genny engine will be killed removing the CO source.
As for fuel spillage, I have always favored LPG for RV use. But in this application I decided to allow gasoline as well. The genny tank cap is not spill proof on the 3,000 watt Chinese genny tanks. Thus, I have designed a new filler spout and cap that do not leak and can be completely closed to all external air venting when in transport.
Both of these devices will be shared on this thread with instructions on how they can be easily made. I do not believe safety issues should be hidden under a basket, but rather should be freely shared.
As for the fuel petcock, research is being conducted into using a model that is opened and closed by manifold vacuum. Thus, the petcock becomes โautomaticโ.
I donโt want to make this too long, but of interest on this topic is this little thing called UL 2201.
UL 2201 is an effort to develop standards for portable generators that reduce the possibility of CO poisoning and electrical shock from damp locations. Reading all of the links and associated patents takes a considerable amount of time, but do provide an interesting read.
In summary, it appears that a UL standard is just around the corner that could significantly change the construction, appearance and, of course, cost of portable generators.
We do, as Americans, need agencies to devise rules to protect ourselves from our own stupidity and failure to follow product warnings.
For now, it appears that only a new round of warning labels and manual rewrites will be necessary โ but that will inevitability change as time moves forward. The standards originally presented have been withdrawn.
Take a few minutes to check out these links:
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
Voluntary Standards
Carbon Monoxide
Generators, Portable
Report test and memo on portable generators and CO are here
CPSC Staff Reports, Memoranda and Contracts
- Portable Generator Vibration Measurements, CPSC Directorate for Engineering Sciences, January 2007
- Engine-Drive Tools, Phase 1 Test Report for Portable Electric Generators, November 2006, CPSC Division of Mechanical Engineering, Directorate for Laboratory Sciences
- Staff Review of Portable Generator Safety, October 2006
- Demonstration of a Remote Carbon Monoxide Sensing Automatic Shut Off Device for Portable Generators,...
- Product Labels for Generators to Address Carbon Monoxide Poisonings, May 2006
- Request for Information: Techniques to Substantially Reduce Carbon Monoxide Emissions from Gasoline Powered Portable Generators
- Portable Generators: CPSC Economics Staff Report, August 2005
- Proposed Warning Language to Accompany Generators, August 2003
- Weatherproof Portable Engine-Generators
- CPSC staff presentations at 5-20-04 Public Forum on CO Poisoning Associated with Portable Generators
- Phase 1 Test Plan - Test program for engine-driven tools project
- Medium-Sized Combustion Chamber System Characterization Tests
- Health Hazard Assessment of CO Poisoning Associated with Emissions from a Portable, 5.5 Kilowatt, Gasoline-Powered Generator
(you will need to visit the actual URL to check out any topics not coded as active by color change above)
And to close it all off, take a peek at what Honda received a patent for in April. You can find the text for the invention here that goes with the attached PDF.
Is this Hondaโs answer to UL 2201? Could beโฆโฆโฆโฆ
Like I said, It is an expectation that we come up with standards, codes, or laws that protect us from ourselves. Expect it soon!
