3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Old___Slow]

:o:B

[professor95]

quabillion wrote:


Shoot man, your gonna open a huge can of worms with the bonded/unbonded debate. :B

No, it is not a can of worms - it is PANDORA'S BOX.

I think James just gave one of the best responses possible to the Blog article :C You see, my observation is that too many authors of such articles are more prone to write what they have read or heard than to make an in-depth analytical assessment of the actual situation that occurs when using a portable generator with a RV.

"We" have devoted pages and pages to this very subject. Members of the discussion have included OSHA professionals, electrical engineers, master electricians and experienced electronics technicians - just to name a few.

While my position that it is safer to NOT bond the designated neutral (actually, a generator has no true "neutral") when using a portable generator with an RV was not universally accepted, no one could tell me why it would be safer on a RV to make the bond.

What I believe we did agree upon was that the inclusion of a ground fault circuit interrupter between the generator and the RV provides a significantly higher level of personal protection from an electrical fault. Thus, if a GFCI is used, the issue of bonding the designated neutral or allowing it to float really does not matter.

You can read the entire thread on Grounding Generators here.

BTW, Quabillion, it is good to hear from you. Just yesterday I was wondering what new projects you might be working on and how the new Honda inverter was working out.

[JConatser]

pritch272 wrote:
... I suppose I'm confused on this now...

Don't be confused. That article is written with "politician wording", a technique that uses words and phrases to explain other words and phrases without actually addressing the concept behind the original words and phrases. The author doesn't remotely address the actual electrical concepts and reasons described by some as to why the ground and neutral wires bonded (connected together) inside a portable generator being used as a singular power source for an RV may not be a good idea.

[quabillion]

pritch272 wrote:
A question on bonding...

Read this generator-bonding-and-grounding blog and it makes perfect sense.

Recall reading a lot of posts in this thread on the same subject and I think the general consensus was to leave the generator unbonded between the neutral and ground.

I suppose I'm confused on this now, and asking for clarification with the end goal safety.

Shoot man, your gonna open a huge can of worms with the bonded/unbonded debate. :B

[pritch272]

A question on bonding...

Read this generator-bonding-and-grounding blog and it makes perfect sense.

Recall reading a lot of posts in this thread on the same subject and I think the general consensus was to leave the generator unbonded between the neutral and ground.

I suppose I'm confused on this now, and asking for clarification with the end goal safety.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:


I have found another commonly available material for wrapping the exhaust pipe that works well. It is the cord used as a gasket on wood stoves. It comes in various diameters and is usually sold in a package with a 7' length. You can get about 30 turns on a 1" pipe with the 7' piece. If using the larger size gasket cord you can easily wrap a 2' length of 1" OD pipe - maybe more. Once wrapped with the gasket cord wrap again with heavy duty aluminum foil and mechanic's wire.

$8 a package at Lowe's. Maybe the photos will make my description more understandable.

[professor95]

vmckague wrote:
Maybe fiberglass house insulation but would it burn? Any ideas?

Both Brad and I tried house insulation. The pink burned almost immediately when placed around the exhaust pipe. The yellow lasted longer and did not burn as badly.

If the exhaust pipe is long enough to dissipate heat, then the muffler will be cool enough to wrap with the yellow (Johns Manville} insulation. You "might" get some slight burning at the muffler inlet. You must make the outer covering over the insulation water proof if it is exposed to rain. Insulation will soak up water like a sponge

I have found another commonly available material for wrapping the exhaust pipe that works well. It is the cord used as a gasket on wood stoves. It comes in various diameters and is usually sold in a package with a 7' length. You can get about 30 turns on a 1" pipe with the 7' piece. If using the larger size gasket cord you can easily wrap a 2' length of 1" OD pipe - maybe more. Once wrapped with the gasket cord wrap again with heavy duty aluminum foil and mechanic's wire.

The stuff the Wiz is talking about works well, but is expensive as heck. An alternative is to visit a U-Pick-It auto wrecking yard and look around for a car or truck that has the silver covered fiberglass insulating material under the hood. It is typically used around wiring that is close to an exhaust pipe or across a firewall. Some of the so called luxury cars like old Caddy's may even have it under the front carpets. The bone yard boss should only charge you a few bucks for the stuff. When I pulled some I had additional parts so he just gave it to me. Take a razor knife and/or heavy scissors because it is often sewn into a sleeve that will need splitting to get off (or cut the wiring harness).

Edit added:

Another thought has come to mind. If the muffler is outside a shed, is it possible to stack some 4" or 6" cinder blocks around the muffler with a 4" block cap? No mortar should be needed. This will create a sound barrier and serve as a heat insulator.

Also consider the James Hardie 1/2" concrete backer board as material to make a box around the muffler. Pieces of aluminum angle iron join the corners and edges nicely. It is also unaffected by heat or rain.

[MrWizard]

IIRC heat wrap, then high temp insulation, then a sheet metal to protect the insulation

[vmckague]

Haven't posted in a couple of years but now I do have a question that I'm sure has been answered but I can't find it in all of these posts.I am in the process of moving the exhaust of my gen to the outside of my shed so I can use it without it being in the elements. So far I have all the exhaust hooked up using a car muffler and upon starting it I find there is a lot of noise coming from the muffler it self. Not the exhaust or inlet but from the muffler sides. I remember somewhere where some one wrapped their muffler with something to quiet it down but I don't remember what was used. Maybe fiberglass house insulation but would it burn? Any ideas?

[LooseNut]

chrisser wrote:


. . .

One thing I noticed is that, above the engine, there's a loose wire tied up. There's no schematic in the manual.

I'm sorta curious what the wire is for, but I haven't had the time to trace it.

I also noticed the loose wire (blk/wh). I looked at it briefly. My only slightly educated guess at this point is that it will stop the engine if grounded. I did call the number on the front of the owners manual and they were able to send me a wiring diagram by email. Ask for the wiring diagram for the APG3012 if you call. The diagram is a poor jpg copy of a poor pdf file. The schematic drawing is ok, but the writing is not easily decipherable. (I can send it to you if you want.) Also, the schematic does not exactly depict the genset wiring, but it's close (e.g., the loose wire is not shown on the schematic, the schematic shows only one main winding but the alternator appears to have two, and the little module that the oil level switch connects to is shown to have three wires on the schematic but actually has a four wire connection, some day I'm going to figure out what exactly is inside that module). The genset is really pretty generic.

The alternator appears to have two main windings that are paralleled inside the alternator on the terminal block. Therefore, it appears that this unit could be rewired for 240 volt operation.

Mike

[chrisser]

LooseNut wrote:




For the price I couldn't resist. I got the last one a week ago at the local Aldi. I wanted one for an LPG conversion for house emergency power.

I have determined that this generator is a relabeled All Power America APG3012 generator,
http://www.allpoweramerica.com/productdetails.php?id_prd=94,
so there is after sale support for this generator.

Also, it appears that Aldi has this generator, and another larger one, on sale periodically, so if you want one, keep checking the weekly ad.

Mike

Great info Loosenut!

I hope you'll keep us posted on your LPG conversion.


One thing I noticed is that, above the engine, there's a loose wire tied up. There's no schematic in the manual.

I'm sorta curious what the wire is for, but I haven't had the time to trace it.

[LooseNut]

chrisser wrote:
Don't know if anyone's interested in a smaller version of these generators at a pretty decent price but...

Aldis has a 2500w/3250w 6.5hp on sale now for $199.

http://www.aldifoods.com/us/html/offers/58_9093_ENU_HTML.htm

I picked one up tonight. Haven't had the chance to start it yet (I need to fill the gas can)

Got it out of the box and it's manufactured by JD with a build date of June. Has two 110 outlets and a set of 12vdc terminals with an 8 amp breaker. No twistlock or RV type plug.

For our needs in our small trailer with no AC, it is likely a great fit at a great price, but YMMV. OTOH, for $200, it'd be a nice backup generator too.

I went to two local Aldis. One had 3 left, the other had 5.

For the price I couldn't resist. I got the last one a week ago at the local Aldi. I wanted one for an LPG conversion for house emergency power.

I have determined that this generator is a relabeled All Power America APG3012 generator,
http://www.allpoweramerica.com/productdetails.php?id_prd=94,
so there is after sale support for this generator.

Also, it appears that Aldi has this generator, and another larger one, on sale periodically, so if you want one, keep checking the weekly ad.

Mike

[cnsayre]

professor95 wrote:

cnsayre wrote:
Dang it. My C46517 has a fuel leak. It's either in the fuel line or the shut-off valve. The fuel line is easy enough to change. Anyone out there replace the shut off valve? I'm hoping there isn't something INSIDE the gas tank, such as a nut, that needs to be held when removing/reinstalling the valve. If there is, that's going to be painful...

No nut inside. The petcock just screws out after loosening the jamb nut on the bottom of the tank.

Check the jamb nut to be sure it is tight. Also the gasket under the nut. Be sure the tank does not have a crack - they can develop at the petcock attachment.

Some petcocks can be disassembled. If yours is one be sure the two tiny Phillips screws are tight on the plate behind the lever.

The cost of the new fuel valve from Champion was something like $5. For $5, it's not worth trying to rebuild the valve.

And thanks. This is this weekend's project, if I manage to find time between a houseguest and two weddings to go to...

[professor95]

cnsayre wrote:
Dang it. My C46517 has a fuel leak. It's either in the fuel line or the shut-off valve. The fuel line is easy enough to change. Anyone out there replace the shut off valve? I'm hoping there isn't something INSIDE the gas tank, such as a nut, that needs to be held when removing/reinstalling the valve. If there is, that's going to be painful...

No nut inside. The petcock just screws out after loosening the jamb nut on the bottom of the tank.

Check the jamb nut to be sure it is tight. Also the gasket under the nut. Be sure the tank does not have a crack - they can develop at the petcock attachment.

Some petcocks can be disassembled. If yours is one be sure the two tiny Phillips screws are tight on the plate behind the lever.

[cnsayre]

Dang it. My C46517 has a fuel leak. It's either in the fuel line or the shut-off valve. The fuel line is easy enough to change. Anyone out there replace the shut off valve? I'm hoping there isn't something INSIDE the gas tank, such as a nut, that needs to be held when removing/reinstalling the valve. If there is, that's going to be painful...