3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[toprudder]

Wrace wrote:
Also, the converter is still drawing some juice, I suppose I could throw the breaker for that and maybe make things a little easier for the AC to start.

Every bit helps.

I would not have thought the converter would make that much difference, but after finding out how much peak current mine draws, it would definitely be worth a try.

[Wrace]

Bluestreak wrote:
I believe the after start/shutdown/start failure delay is to allow the "head pressure" to bleed off in the compressor and give the motor an easier time of starting. It will happen no matter how the unit is powered: shore power or generator.

Ok, that makes sense.

Couple of other things that just dawned on me. Because we use the AC so little I usually just leave it in 'Auto' cool mode and that is the mode I've been doing all this testing in. I wonder if it would be easier for it to start in the non auto (fan?) mode or if that makes any difference.

Also, the converter is still drawing some juice, I suppose I could throw the breaker for that and maybe make things a little easier for the AC to start.

[Bluestreak]

I believe the after start/shutdown/start failure delay is to allow the "head pressure" to bleed off in the compressor and give the motor an easier time of starting. It will happen no matter how the unit is powered: shore power or generator.

[Wrace]

professor95 wrote:

OK - like I said no harm will come from the wrong wires.

Since the yellow-yellow in #2 did not work you must have the circuit in #1 with the timed motor start relay. Therefore go with yellow-red for the supra6. That should work. No idea what the time delay is - probably something like a minute. Fan starts first then when the time delay relay hits the compressor starts. This is good for a generator as it does not put the load from both motors on at one time.

In the schematic the start capacitor appears to be "optional", but your photo shows two caps, so the one in the dashed line area is there. The back capacitor is the compressor based on the wire color.

Ok thanks for the reply. I guess I'm confused now, probably always been confused. I know the picture is not the best, so it might be helpful to describe it as well. I see three capacitors in there, and based on wire color it matches up with the #2 side of the schematic.

The tall gray one which matches the wiring in the schematic labeled as the 'run capacitor' with two yellows and a white on one side, and two reds and an open on the other side. (Three spade terminals on each side of this capacitor for a total of six)

The little black one in the back matches the wiring schematic labeled 'start capacitor' with the two yellow wires going to it, and it appears to have some sort of little bridge thingy soldered across the other two terminals. (four spade terminals total on this capacitor) This is the one I tried wiring the SPP6 to today.

The little gray one in front has one brown wire and one brown wire with white stripe going to it, which matches with the schematic as the 'fan capacitor'.

I don't think this AC unit has the delayed start as it sure seems like it is starting both the fan and compressor at the same time, or if there is a delay it is more like one second or so.

Is there any harm in attempting to install the SPP6 across the run capacitor? The SPP6 has two wires, one has a regular spade connector and the other has the piggy-back spade connector (for use where there is no open connector on the capacitor). I'm not sure what terminals on the run capacitor these two wires should be connected to? I'll probably try this with alligator clips as suggested first to see if it even works.

Some other observations/questions.

When the AC will not start there is nothing when I move the AC thermostat switch to the on position. There is no clicking or sound from the AC, and no change in the generators noise/rpm. Is this just because the AC is not getting enough voltage/amperage such that it doesn't even try to start?

Yet on the occasions that it try's to start but fails to do so there is a clicking sound coming from the AC and the gen bogs way down in rpm/noise. At this point the AC is struggling and seems to be running but very sluggish and then the Honda goes into overload. This whole cycle lasts only about 10-20 second or so. What is making that clicking noise in the AC unit?

There is some sort of time-delay which occurs after a failed start attempt, or after a successful start attempt before it will make another attempt to start. In other words, I have to wait several minutes before it will make another attempt at starting when I move the thermostat switch to on. I believe it also behaves this way when plugged into shore power but I'd have to verify that. Is this delay related in any way to the delay that happens on the heat/furnance side where the burner lighting is delayed until after the fan starts?

Thanks

[professor95]

Wrace wrote:
Well that's discouraging, seems to have made the situation worse.

The Champion has always started this AC even without the hard start capacitor and it did so again after the SPP6 was installed with really no change in effort detected based on how much the Champion drew down in rpms/sound.

The Honda 2000 on the other hand will not start the AC at all now, where it did intermittently when testing yesterday. Now it chokes down the honda and makes clicking noises from the AC and sort of runs slow for a very short time before sending the honda into overload.

Yesterday (before SPP6) much to my surprise the honda started and ran the AC but I could not get it to do so reliably time after time. It even started the AC in eco mode one time.

Ambient temp yesterday was 68 and it's 78 today.

OK - like I said no harm will come from the wrong wires.

Since the yellow-yellow in #2 did not work you must have the circuit in #1 with the timed motor start relay. Therefore go with yellow-red for the supra6. That should work. No idea what the time delay is - probably something like a minute. Fan starts first then when the time delay relay hits the compressor starts. This is good for a generator as it does not put the load from both motors on at one time.

In the schematic the start capacitor appears to be "optional", but your photo shows two caps, so the one in the dashed line area is there. The back capacitor is the compressor based on the wire color.

[snarfattack]

Could be your start relay is bad... hooking it up as shown in the instructions may work better.

[jimmyfred]

...........I'd try some alligator clips for a temporary test , then you can add clips when you see an improvement . , jh

[Wrace]

These are the instructions, I suppose I could try following them and see what happens... 😉

[jimmyfred]

........Common sense tells me that the largest capacitor is the Starter capacitor because it has to have the Largest Quantity to start the motor . , jf

[Wrace]

Well that's discouraging, seems to have made the situation worse.

The Champion has always started this AC even without the hard start capacitor and it did so again after the SPP6 was installed with really no change in effort detected based on how much the Champion drew down in rpms/sound.

The Honda 2000 on the other hand will not start the AC at all now, where it did intermittently when testing yesterday. Now it chokes down the honda and makes clicking noises from the AC and sort of runs slow for a very short time before sending the honda into overload.

Yesterday (before SPP6) much to my surprise the honda started and ran the AC but I could not get it to do so reliably time after time. It even started the AC in eco mode one time.

Ambient temp yesterday was 68 and it's 78 today.

[Wrace]

professor95 wrote:

EDIT ADDED: Well, you posted a schematic after I had written the text below. It appears that you have the older style compressor after all and a run/start relay. As such, the Supco goes across the yellow wires on the start capacitor which is shown in the schematic as the dashed line capacitor in the right hand block.

Ok, I'll give that a try now. So the start capacitor is the little guy in the back next to the bee hive remnants. 🙂

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:
I finished up the loose ends of the "sound shroud" for my genset project.

Regards,
John

The Acoustic Foam is not as expensive on this site as on others.

Knowing my "find" and results, you may want to check it out.

[professor95]

Wrace wrote:
I am attempting to install the SPP6 right now and need some clarification on installation. The instructions simply say to install it 'over the run capacitor'. I have a call into supco tech support but no reply.

Which of these is the run capacitor, and which terminals are used? The SPP6 has two wires, one of which has a single spade connector, and the other a piggy-back type spade connector.

Thanks

EDIT ADDED: Well, you posted a schematic after I had written the text below. It appears that you have the older style compressor after all and a run/start relay. As such, the Supco goes across the yellow wires on the start capacitor which is shown in the schematic as the dashed line capacitor in the right hand block.

I can't tell much from the photo. But, one of the two capacitors will have wiring going to the fan motor. The other capacitor will have wires going to the A/C compressor.

Unless the compressor is an older version, it will only have two wires. Trace these wires back to the capacitor that is used to start the compressor and make your connection to those two wires. If your capacitor has more than two terminals for connection and one is blank, push the female connector onto that terminal and the double spade to the one furthest away from the empty terminal. If you make a wrong connection on the original capacitor it just won't work - no smoke should come out. In that case, move the wire to the other terminal.

You may not have the needed terminal, in that case cutting and wire nuttin' in the new capacitor wire may be necessary. In alternating current, the capacitor is not polarized so which wire is which is not critical.

My knee jerk from the photo would be the yellow and red wires on the rear capacitor. But, again there is not enough detail to be sure. Trying those two should not result in any harm.

Older compressors may have both start and run windings. If that is your case (which I doubt) you need to be sure you tap the start windings before the switch that cuts off the start winding.

[professor95]

toprudder wrote:

professor95 wrote:
Bob,


Can you please give a little more explanation for interpretation?

Ok, the "harm#" is the harmonic number. Since we are 60 Hz, the 2nd harmonic is 120 Hz, 3rd is 180 Hz, etc.

The "harms(avg)" and "harms(max)" are the currents of each harmonic, in amps.

That helps tremendously. Thank you!

[Wrace]

I am attempting to install the SPP6 right now and need some clarification on installation. The instructions simply say to install it 'over the run capacitor'. I have a call into supco tech support but no reply.

Which of these is the run capacitor, and which terminals are used? The SPP6 has two wires, one of which has a single spade connector, and the other a piggy-back type spade connector.

Edited: I think I figured it out but sent the pictures to supco for confirmation.

It helps if you look at the schematic on the back of the access panel... 🙂

Based on this it looks like the run capacitor is the large one in back that has 2 yellow wires and one white wire on one side of the capacitor. White wire looks to go out directly to the compressor. And two red wires plus one open terminal on the other side of the capacitor.

So I assume I plug the single spade connector off the SPP6 on the open terminal on one side, and the piggy-back spade off the SPP6 to the white wire terminal on the other side.


Thanks