3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[jlaustin]

FYI - Genset Exhaust Parts

I'm already starting to think about a winter project to do on my much-modified DuroPower genset. I'm considering moving towards enclosing the bottom (the sides and top are already enclosed) for further sound attenuation, so it would be desireable to move the muffler out of the enclosure to keep radiated heat down.

The Chinese gensets' exhaust systems use fairly small diameter exhaust pipe, so automotive sources don't have tubing, clamps, flanges, etc. small enough to be useful. It has been previously well-covered in this thread about adapting galvanized pipe, black iron pipe, and EMT conduit.

I just happened to do some searching on Ebay today and found that there are some possibilites in the karting world. I found a vendor on Ebay that sells exhaust flanges for Honda clone engines and even sells an exhaust kit that includes the flange and mandrel-bent and straight tubing for fabricating an exhaust system - apparently everything slip-fits and you have to weld-up the system once you've fitted the pieces: go kart exhaust kit.

Seems to be a handy source for some of the exhaust components I'll need ... just thought I'd pass the info along!

Regards,
John

[Wrace]

Is there any word on availability of retrofit electric start option from CPE? Is there a website that they will show up on one day that I should be monitoring?

Thanks

[Old___Slow]

Skibane,

Do you know, is the Yamaha EF2600 made in China? Perhaps the Proforce is a quality gen? I think China will never run out of products to MFG as most have a short life. US land fill is the business of the future. Or maybe the US Gov't will demand their stuff be returned to sender upon failure?

[Skibane]

professor95 wrote:
I believe the engine design on these models is less like the Honda GX series that the majority of the 3,000 watt class Chinese Generators use and more like the Yamaha (or is it Mitsubishi?)

Yamaha. The Proforce is a copy of the Yamaha EF2600, without the GFI outlet.

[Old___Slow]

We are going to have a uprising (revolt) soon about China. They may? produce SOME great products but the jury will decide. In three days I have had THREE items, made in China burn out. One power supply for my 2 Wire router, a near new Hoover vac go bad and a just out of warranty LCD PC monitor failure. All made in China. Right now it's time for a chill-out.

Yes, my Champion cranked the last it was used. Does have a oil leak. What's next?

[professor95]

Bill,

I have written many times on how the "outsourced" components manage to come together to create a generator with a name and color that is extremely like the one of a different color with a different name. Quite truthfully, mufflers, carburetors, air filter assemblies, engine blocks, generator housings, engine shrouds, fuel tanks and more all may come from the same supplier or one copying the other suppliers no matter what the name on the gnerator is. It is a real hodge-podge of who makes what from where.

But - and it is a significant but - if you take the time to look at an engine and alternator sold under the Champion name you will find the letters CPE either cast, forged or stamped into the components. The carburetor will have CPE cast into it. The valve cover will show CPE. The underside of the fuel tank is stamped CPE and so on. While this does NOT preclude CPE switching component manufacturers, it does show that the components are made exclusively for CPE and not just any generic generator manufacturer. I know of no other Chines vendor that does this with their products.

As for the CPE factory.... Well, I have seen photos of the facility with the Champion name on the building. I have watched videos of the production and testing process. But, I was not allowed to keep the photos or videos. I was told there are some company "secrets" contained within that they did not want to release to eyes that could steal ideas.

In the videos I have seen fuel tanks welded and then tested in a water tank by adding compressed air and looking for bubbles. I have seen how each assembled engine is run tested and performance is measured on a machine that appears to be some type of dynometer. I know the videos were not fake and that they are done at a facility run by CPE.

I am told the CPE factory is on the campus of a larger manufacturer of similar power products. But, the manufacturer which shares it's campus with CPE DOES NOT sell any products in North America. I am also told that CPE sub-assemblies are NOT made by the company that shares a campus with CPE.

There are some doubting Thomas' that want to challenge these statements. Personally, I have not seen anything but unfounded commentary to support anything other than what I have just shared.

All anyone on this thread needs to do to get an idea of how many manufacturers of small engine power equipment and generators willing to sell products to both Global and North American exporters is to look at the Made in China link. It is just the tip of the iceburg!!!!!

CPE has localized their operations to the US and Canada only - which is the toughest market to enter due to EPA and CARB requirments. They do not do direct sales to individuals. CPE does not advertise their products as a company, but their vendors may advertise (i.e. Tractor Supply, Cabellas, Sam's Club, Costco, etc.)

You are 100% right about noise levels. We learn to filter out certain sounds. A generator may be a major focus to someone that wants to hear it. But, to others that want to filter it may not even be noticed. Some things you get used to, others you do not.

[jlaustin]

Let's all be careful out there!

Very sad story in the local paper today. An older couple in a RV parked overnight near town and ran the generator so they could have A/C all night (it's been really hot and humid here in mid-east Tennessee). She woke up the next a.m.; he didn't. She was released after a day in the ICU for carbon monoxide poisoning.

The paper is scant on details, but I'm assuming it was an on-board gennie since it was a motorized RV and not a trailer. No mention was made of whether there was a carbon monoxide detector or not.

The Professor has cautioned before that "he would not sleep with the genset running" and this illustrates why! Even though my genset is external and receiver-hitch mounted, I also believe it would be a bad idea to sleep with the gennie running, just in case of CO accumulation or fire.

Regards,
John

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

Alexis De Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835

[bill_h]

Old & Slow wrote:


I have lot's of fun with my 'sound level meter' I set the speakers so the sound level of the Champion read 67/68, at that level for the Champion the powermate read 69/70 ~ pretty close. Don't you think? But is there kind of a ring or clanging sound to the Champion? My Champion sounds the same. Anyway, the test was real. Wish others would give us the same kind of comparison test with other gens and the Champion.

The human ear/brain combination is way more complex than a meter. Not only does the ear hear things differently than the meter, one person's ear will hear differently than another's.

As an example, my Kohler Klanker measures 67 dbA, as does one of the inverter generators at high output. Can't remember which (and it doesn't matter). Observers all agreed that the Kohler sounded louder, but both read the same on the meter's A scale.

The beauty of a meter is that it "hears" the same for everything, so we are comparing apples to apples. The meter does not hear what we hear, but it hears exactly the same every time, and produces a number that can be recorded and used for comparison. Not perfect, but consistent and impartial.

My radio shack gets checked yearly by comparing it to a lab-calibrated and certified meter at my former employer, and it is always within 1 dbA. Textbooks say one db is the smallest increment the human ear can discern. With old men, it is a little more.

I have also gotten different readings on the same generators, particularly Champions. I suspect that they, or their components, are built in different parts of Outsource Heaven over there.

Time and again, I have seen the same product made of different materials or plastic parts from different molds. Most recent example was a bunch of Coleman stoves all bought at the same time from the same place. When we set them up, we noticed some differences. During use, I checked a few, and there were differences in the range of flame adjustment, so I know the internals were not the same, either. I helped wash them up after the event, and laid the controllers all out in a row. Over a dozen of them, and there were three obviously different production lines or factories.

Champion will tell you that they have their own factory, etc, etc, but even if they really believe that, outsourcing, official and unofficial, is rampant over there.

No, I am not a Champion-hater. If I needed a cheap gennie at home for power outage and noise wasn't a problem, I would have one. I presently have a red contractor gennie that is probably as loud. Way back when I bought it, a Champion would have been a better value if it had been available. My closest neighbor (the one who hears it the loudest) gets to plug his freezer and fridge into it.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:

ATS_Aaron wrote:
I borrowed a Powermate Proforce 2500 (3125 peak) generator from my dad to try out in our 30ft trailer. It looks like this:



Aaron

I believe the engine design on these models is less like the Honda GX series that the majority of the 3,000 watt class Chinese Generators use and more like the Yamaha (or is it Mitsubishi?)

Whatever it is, parts interchange with CPE and others like them will be different.

[professor95]

ATS_Aaron wrote:
I borrowed a Powermate Proforce 2500 (3125 peak) generator from my dad to try out in our 30ft trailer. It looks like this:



Aaron

I believe the engine design on these models is less like the Honda GX series that the majority of the 3,000 watt class Chinese Generators use and more like the Yamaha (or is it Mitsubishi?)

[bg71361]

ATS_Aaron wrote:

ATS_Aaron wrote:
I borrowed a Powermate Proforce 2500 (3125 peak) generator from my dad to try out in our 30ft trailer. It looks like this:



Aaron

I got a great deal on a 3500 watt Champion. I did a quick comparison of the sound levels yesterday. The Champion 3500 is first and the louder smaller Coleman Powermate is last. You can skip around in the video with the utube controls to get a direct A B comparison. I was content with the Powermate volume level so iam overjoyed that the Champion is quieter.

You Tube - Generator Sound off

Aaron

Thanks, very nice comparison.

[Old___Slow]

ATS,

I have lot's of fun with my 'sound level meter' I set the speakers so the sound level of the Champion read 67/68, at that level for the Champion the powermate read 69/70 ~ pretty close. Don't you think? But is there kind of a ring or clanging sound to the Champion? My Champion sounds the same. Anyway, the test was real. Wish others would give us the same kind of comparison test with other gens and the Champion. You did great. FYI my Champion my is three years old and has had lot's of stress testing. Starts on first or second pull or with the added ES like a charm. Puts out about 2600/2700 watts after 30 minutes run time. Always started a Coleman 13,500 A/C without fail with the charger/converter on.

[ATS_Aaron]

ATS_Aaron wrote:
I borrowed a Powermate Proforce 2500 (3125 peak) generator from my dad to try out in our 30ft trailer. It looks like this:



Aaron

I got a great deal on a 3500 watt Champion. I did a quick comparison of the sound levels yesterday. The Champion 3500 is first and the louder smaller Coleman Powermate is last. You can skip around in the video with the utube controls to get a direct A B comparison. I was content with the Powermate volume level so iam overjoyed that the Champion is quieter.

You Tube - Generator Sound off

Aaron

[professor95]

W8NONU wrote:

jlaustin wrote:

pritch272 wrote:

Is there an alternative cap that will eliminate any possible spills while venting?

You can eliminate the tank, cap,vents, and spills by converting the genset to LPG!:B
Regards,
John

Ah, yes! I want to get started on this conversion. I guess I better start researching.

There is NOT an alternative style cap for the older gas tanks. Before I decided to totally eliminate gasoline and go strictly with LPG I did make an alternative cap out of PVC and Seal All. It worked, but was difficult to fill with the generator in "The Cave". Here are a few photos of the leak proof cap. Do NOT forget the fuel gauge is not totally vapor or leak proof and may need sealing as well. I removed my gauge and replaced it with a piece of metal, then sealed it with the Seal All. One note on Seal All.... sunlight DOES break it down over time. In about a year it had cracked and needed recoating. When the AUX fuel tank in the back of my Dually showed signs of Seal All cracking I coated it with Dicor Rubber Roof Sealant. So far, so good.

Note the vent valve in the center of the cap needed to run the engine. Just open it a crack to let air into the tank so fuel will draw into the carb.

[professor95]

There is a product on the market that is usually sold at RV stores called VLP, or Vinyl Liquid Repair. It is normally packed in a yellow tube about the size of a small toothpaste.

The stuff is awesome! You can join two pieces of vinyl and once it has dried you will tear apart the vinyl, not the glued attachment. I can't begin to list all the things made of vinyl I have successfully repaired with the stuff. Most notable was a good awning that had ripped loose in the wind at the "weld" between the white and colored fabric. I took the awning off, laid it out on the garage floor and applied VLP to the rip - which was at least 8 feet long. I held it together with masking tape until it was cured. The awning endured many more windstorms without tearing.

Anyway, to the point. If you are in need of a cover for your generator and are not into sewing with dental floss or fishing line, VLP will work great. Identify where your seam needs to go. Run masking tape down the outer edges that you do not want glued. Spread the VLP glue on and then clamp the seam together - preferably with something like a couple of wood paint stir sticks between the clamps and vinyl to spread the clamping force. Give it a few hours to overnight to cure and you have a PERMANENT bond just like a sewn one - but no holes.

Old awning material is usually free at a RV shop. If it has not gotten too stiff, it is excellent for making covers. Or, if you have a grill cover that is too big, you can reduce the size and glue it back together.