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3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy


For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at โ€œcloningโ€ reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a โ€œrunningโ€ display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. โ€œSupposedlyโ€ Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for โ€œabove average qualityโ€ Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an โ€œavailability listingโ€.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings โ€“ most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is โ€œreasonablyโ€ quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a โ€œlook alikeโ€ eng...






















Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.
10,029 REPLIES 10,029

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
byates wrote:
Champion's generator with the 389cc/13hp engine is advertised at 6500/7800 watts with no posted amperage output.

Does anyone know if the champion amps are posted anywhere? The manual says there is a 25amp breaker on the 30amp RV outlet, but I need something more concrete than that.
I can't comment on Onan's service, since my Homesite 6500 has been problem free.


you can divide the wattage by the voltage to get the amperage. Thus, 3,500 watts / 120 VAC = 29 amps.

But, as you noted, the circuit breaker for the RV outlet is 25 amps and the breaker for the duplex outlet is 20 amps. Those will be your limiting factors. The generator will provide the full amperage of the breakers.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

byates
Explorer
Explorer
I am now ready to purchase a smaller generator that I can use in a more populated area than my Onan Homesite 6500, which is used practically every weekend at the farm. The Homesite 6500 has a 13hp/389cc motor and is rated at 5000/5500 watts with advertised amps of 42 amps at 120 volts. Champion's generator with the 389cc/13hp engine is advertised at 6500/7800 watts with no posted amperage output.

I reviewed the Costco offer on the new champion remote start 3000/3500 generator, but was unable to find any posting on the rated amps for this model, either at Costco or CPE.
I am also looking at the CummingsOnan P3027, which also has the 196cc/6.5hp engine. It has a advertised amp rating of 11/22 amps at 240/120 volts. Advertised wattage is 2700 watts.
The champion is definitely cheaper, but I would like to know its rated amps. Makes you wonder if it's not posted because of a conflict with the advertised wattage.
Does anyone know if the champion amps are posted anywhere? The manual says there is a 25amp breaker on the 30amp RV outlet, but I need something more concrete than that.
I can't comment on Onan's service, since my Homesite 6500 has been problem free.

byates
Explorer
Explorer
Wrace wrote:
professor95 wrote:
Translation: The battery goes dead when the unit sits.

So far, I can deal with the pull start on the champion, but I don't know that my wife will be able to should the need the arise during power outages and such.


My Onan Homesite 6500 has electric start, but I've never used it. It has close to 4000 hours on it since I purchased it after being without power due to Hurricane Rita. The 13 HP engine is a strong tug on this 64 year old body, but luckily one pull does it. Maybe one of these days I will buy a battery, when the shoulder finally gives out.

byates

bill_h
Explorer
Explorer
Perhaps the coach battery could be used to start the generator. Since there are already wires connecting the coach, a pair of DC wires heavy enough for a momentary start load wouldn't be a big deal with Andersons.
NOTE: Any incorrect spelling is intentional to prevent those annoying popups.

84 Barth 30Tag powered by HT502/Thorley/Weiand etc, Gear Vendors OD.
Siamese Calvin and Airedale Hobbes, 4WD Toyota toad

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
GOOD NEWS!

The Wireless 3500 Model 46538 is back on internet sales from Costco.com

Price is $469, which includes shipping. Not the sale price we first saw, but certainly a good price for "shipping included".

I cannot post the link in a packet - I guess it is too long. Anyway, you can cut and paste the following or just go to Costco and type in Champion Generator.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11589601&search=champion%20generator&Mo=1&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_searchโŒฉ=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=champion%20generator&Ntt=champion%20generator&No=0&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

Wrace
Explorer
Explorer
professor95 wrote:
Translation: The battery goes dead when the unit sits.

Thanks Professor,

You are right, adding electric start means an additional maintenance aspect. We are no strangers to the float chargers around here. In fact it's almost comical with extension cords running here and there to power the float chargers hooked to the various things that are used infrequently.

I sometimes feel like I should build a separate building to put all these pieces of equipment and their umbilical-cord float chargers in.

So far, I can deal with the pull start on the champion, but I don't know that my wife will be able to should the need the arise during power outages and such.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Electric Start is nice - but, you gotta have a battery to turn the starter.

The battery needs to be charged or the starter doesn't work.

To charge the battery, there is a coil behind the engine flywheel. The coil is sized to provide about 14 volts of alternating current when the engine is running at 3,600 RPM.



The alternating current from the little coil must be changed from AC to DC to charge the battery. To accomplish this transition, a single diode is used as a rectifier. This is what a common silicon P/N junction diode looks like:



The diode "clips" the negative part of an AC sine wave so that the output is a "pulsed" DC



The silicon diode has a cathode and anode. It is referred to as a Positive-Negative Junction Device due to its physical make-up. We shorten this to simply P/N Junction Silicon Diode.



While this works, it is not the "BEST" way to take care of your electric start generator battery.

For starters, the charging circuit is unregulated. The voltage to the battery can vary by several volts depending on the accuracy of the charge coil construction, strength of the magnets in the flywheel, and of course engine speed.

We also know that simple charging circuits such as this type often result in parasitic loss from the battery when the unit is not used frequently. One such route of loss is leakage through the P/N junction of the rectifier diode back to the coil. Translation: The battery goes dead when the unit sits.

I learned several years ago when I first bought my Champion 40008 electric start generator NOT to depend on the charging circuit to maintain the battery. In fact, I have the diode clipped on my electric start pressure washer, 40008 and 7,500 watt home generator so there is no charge voltage from the internal flywheel coil or parasitic loss back through the circuit when it is sitting. I intend to do it soon on my newest electric start/remote control generator.

What I do is connect a FLOAT CHARGER to a fully charged battery. Unlike a "regular" battery charger a float charger will supply enough current and voltage to maintain the battery at 12.8 volts without overcharging. A float charger can measure battery voltage and cut on and off as needed to replace normal discharge and parasitic loss. Float chargers are NOT intended to recharge dead batteries. They are designed to keep a charged battery charged.

Float chargers can be purchased from Harbor Freight for $10 - often less when they are on sale. Or, you can purchase a more expensive Battery Tender Junior..

I have at least a dozen of the HF Float chargers in use on my boat, tractor, 7,500 Watt generator, mowers, seldom used cars, etc. For the $$$ they do a good job of maintaining battery charge and overcoming normal parasitic losses. You may, of course, leave the OEM charging circuit on the generator "AS IS" and just connect the Float Charger to the battery when the generator is sitting. This will assure a battery charged enough to start the generator when needed. Without the use of a float charger, you may find yourself pulling the rope rather than pressing the button.

Do yourself a favor and invest in a Float Charger - not a trickle charger or conventional battery charger. Both of the latter can overcharge a battery ruining it forever. Of course, an (expensive) four stage "intelligent" battery charger is OK but is pretty much overkill for the small generator starting battery.

Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

IND_navyvet
Explorer
Explorer
I received my Northern Tool catalog today and found a propane powered 3500W generator. Price is a little higher than some 3500W gennies but not that bad.
Here is the link for ETQ Portable Propane Generator;
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200383168_200383168

Les K.

professor95
Explorer
Explorer
Wrace wrote:
Is there any word on availability of retrofit electric start option from CPE? Is there a website that they will show up on one day that I should be monitoring?

Thanks


There is a new company that is just getting started called SuperGen Products.

The folks behind the company and I had a nice visit when I was in Louisville at THE RALLY.

What SuperGen Products hopes to do is provide a large assortment of add-on's and accessories for the portable generator market - in particular the Chinese generators that most of us own. The electric start conversion kit is one of the items on their menu. I do not know if they have it ready to go yet or not, but my understanding is that it will include all of the parts to complete the conversion for under $100. This is comparable to the kit I bought last year from a Canadian supplier. I believe Floyd also purchased the same kit.

The only problem I had with the kit from the Canadian supplier was the shipping cost and the time it took to arrive. When you are mailing a flywheel and starter motor the weight adds up. Hopefully, the shipping on a kit from a New York company will be less and arrive in less time.

Anyway, I hope SuperGen Products can deliver what they envision. There is a tremendous need for accessory products to support the variety of Chinese gensets available. Drop them an e-mail and see what the status of their kit is.
Professor Randy T. Agee & Nancy Agee. Also Oscar, the totally ruined Dachshund.
2009 Cedar Creek 5th Wheel - 2004 Volvo VNL670 class 8 MotorHome conversion as toter.
Turbocharged, 12L, 465 HP and 1,800 ft. Lbs. of torque.

jlaustin
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
John,

Me thinks your project will have the correct bottom line. You have been willing to put it all out there for all to see and follow the trial and error process. Pehaps soon you will have a great answer concerning to more or not to move the muffler. My trial required too much length in the pipe to relocate the muffler. The box was used in a Factory Genset Compartment. The compartment was on the passenger side, requiring a double back. 36" total piping, giving off lot's of heat. Nother thing. I used water/gas 3/4" pipe with 90 degree L's. Creating to much back pressure. Causing ther engine to over heat. Your idea should be a winner. Please give us more info' on your progress in sound lowering. Many are looking for some answers to cool and cut the noise. Do you think more air movement might be necessary?

Floyd

Floyd,
In my application, it looks like I can have a radiused bend coming right out of the exhaust flange and then straight down and out of the genset enclosure ... probably no more than 15" of header in the enclosure. The top of the enclosure has a 8"/500 cfm fan that cools very well right now. I'm hoping that with reducing the heat burden from the exhaust and using some baffling, it will remain sufficient. However, if necessary, I think a 10" fan with 1500 cfm is available. It'll take some monitoring of the enclosure's temp and the CHT to be sure ventilation is adequate. (I have the genhead's temp on a gauge already.)

It'll be this winter before much data is forthcoming, probably somewhere between 9,000 and 10,000 posts on this thread!:B

Regards,
John
John & Linda
2005 Pilgrim 274RL-5SS
2008 F-250
Amelia - the Welsh Terrier. Daisy, Bonny, & Rosie - the cats!

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
John,

Me thinks your project will have the correct bottom line. You have been willing to put it all out there for all to see and follow the trial and error process. Pehaps soon you will have a great answer concerning to more or not to move the muffler. My trial required too much length in the pipe to relocate the muffler. The box was used in a Factory Genset Compartment. The compartment was on the passenger side, requiring a double back. 36" total piping, giving off lot's of heat. Nother thing. I used water/gas 3/4" pipe with 90 degree L's. Creating to much back pressure. Causing ther engine to over heat. Your idea should be a winner. Please give us more info' on your progress in sound lowering. Many are looking for some answers to cool and cut the noise. Do you think more air movement might be necessary?

Floyd

jlaustin
Explorer
Explorer
Old & Slow wrote:
John, Prof' likes to call you Dr. Austin. For this post I'll just go with John. Just not Dear John;)

Here is what I experienced with relocating the muffler out of the box. I was never able to overcome the heat of the manifold/exhaust. I think you will find 400 plus degrees in the pipe for some distance. Muffler wrap 'might' do the trick to lower this temp. Using a 400 plus degree boiler wrap I was unable to touch the insulation cover. At that point, I decided I would never relocate the muffler. If you find true binefit when the job is completed, that will be needed info' for others wanting to construct an ideal, sound lowering box. I continue to promote the use of the 1/2" 4' x 8' sheets of sound board (the black stuff) from either Lowe's or HD. The board I used is stamped (from HD) 23 STC. Looks like celotex. What I hold to is it's more important to absorb the noise of the gen, not just block or stop sound transmission. I would like to know if you have an opinion of any binifit by using the Hardi product as a first layer. Anyway I'm down to being able to lower the noise from my Champ by 15 dBA with using only the 1/2" sound board and off- setting all air intake and exhaust. No direct 'open' view of the gen. And placing the gen on carpet. The Rubber mating Prof' uses would be perfered. This thread has been a great learning experience which continues. Kidos on your project. Carry on.

Floyd,
As you know, I wrapped the very short header, muffler, and exhaust pipe with header wrap. It controlled heat to the point you could at least momentarily touch the wrap without being burned. I was just "guessing" that if I moved the muffler out of the enclosure, the rather slender header would have so much less surface area traversing the enclosure versus the existing exhaust system that there would be less radiated heat (it certainly will allow large air gaps, at least!). I was planning to try the header wrap again, then perhaps a layer of fiberglass to provide some air gap, then maybe use some heat shield material (same stuff used to protect floorboards from catalytic converter) my brother gave me to enclose that.

I thought that then I might be able to enclose the bottom of the genset - probably use a heavy rubber mat inside of sheetmetal on the bottom. I think the Hardiebacker works well on the flat side panels and top, especially since it is glued to the foam lining of my metal panels and can "float" so the mass doesn't transmit sound/vibration to the sheetmetal. I already have designed my present generator head air intake and genset ventilation (both forced/fan driven) ducts to force any sound through right-angle turns. That would just leave fabrication of a passive intake duct for cooling and carb air, and a passive duct for the generator head cooling air exhaust. I'll offset those, too, somehow!

Regards,
John
John & Linda
2005 Pilgrim 274RL-5SS
2008 F-250
Amelia - the Welsh Terrier. Daisy, Bonny, & Rosie - the cats!

Gdetrailer
Explorer III
Explorer III
Found something that might be useful for those who have 3500W gen heads that have quit working.

NORTHERN TOOL GEN HEAD

For $199 Northern Tool is selling a 3500W replacement gen head for engines with a tapered output shaft. Keep in mind that the gen head is wired for 120/240 output but might be rewirable. They also have replacement gen heads for tapered engine shaft in other wattages along with belt drive gen heads which you could couple your own engine to.

ATS_Aaron
Explorer
Explorer
I am thinkng of adding some Dynamat to the components of my CPE generator. It might cut noise a little. My Yamaha Warroir had little rubber spacers between the engine cooling fins to cut noise down. Maybe I can replicate those too.

Aaron

Old___Slow
Explorer
Explorer
John, Prof' likes to call you Dr. Austin. For this post I'll just go with John. Just not Dear John;)

Here is what I experienced with relocating the muffler out of the box. I was never able to overcome the heat of the manifold/exhaust. I think you will find 400 plus degrees in the pipe for some distance. Muffler wrap 'might' do the trick to lower this temp. Using a 400 plus degree boiler wrap I was unable to touch the insulation cover. At that point, I decided I would never relocate the muffler. If you find true binefit when the job is completed, that will be needed info' for others wanting to construct an ideal, sound lowering box. I continue to promote the use of the 1/2" 4' x 8' sheets of sound board (the black stuff) from either Lowe's or HD. The board I used is stamped (from HD) 23 STC. Looks like celotex. What I hold to is it's more important to absorb the noise of the gen, not just block or stop sound transmission. I would like to know if you have an opinion of any binifit by using the Hardi product as a first layer. Anyway I'm down to being able to lower the noise from my Champ by 15 dBA with using only the 1/2" sound board and off- setting all air intake and exhaust. No direct 'open' view of the gen. And placing the gen on carpet. The Rubber mating Prof' uses would be perfered. This thread has been a great learning experience which continues. Kidos on your project. Carry on.