3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[jasult]

thanks for reply's. My grinder is 15 amp and I would not think it would have been problem. Yesterday I did pull off fuel shut off bottom and fuel flowed good as well as I pulled off carb bowl and fuel flowed good. I will add some sea foam to fuel as well as change spark plug and see. I have to use the grinder again Monday so I will test it again.Spark arrestor is also fine. I had same problem last fall while dry camping at Hershey Park. I thought someone flipped off the switch a few times as it would start right back up. This Champ was bought last summer and not more than 20 hours total on it. Yesterday I plugged the 7 inch grinder in with the short 6 foot wire and clicked on and off the grinder a few times and sure enough it stalled several times. If I just let genny run with no load it seams fine.

[N9WOS]

I will stick my nose in……

Try a new spark plug.
I have seen spark plugs break down when they heat up.

Make sure everything is disconnected from the kill wire on the ignition coil.
Disconnect the kill wire where it leaves the fan shroud.
Anything on the kill switch line could cause it.

If that doesn’t do it………. the only things that come to mind are………

Ignition coil breaking down.

Or valve sticking when the valve train heats up as the engine is loaded. As soon as the engine comes to a stop, and the valve cools, then it unsticks. That could be caused by deposit build up on the valve cause by infrequent usage, or bad fuel.

[professor95]

jasult wrote:
Professor, have a question on my 3500/4000 model 46514 The last few days I have been running my heavy 7 inch grinder that is 15 amp and every few minutes the champ would shut off. First thing after checking oil and was good i disconnected the low oil shut off but that did not help.Fuel supply looks good as I removed bowl and checked flow with float working. Even with choke half on when cold did same thing.
If i run my smaller 4 inch grinder all is good but the 15 amp grinder causes it to stall but always restarts with 1 pull. I would have thought the breaker would trip not the engine stall.
On the web site they talk about the avr voltage adjustment and in 120v side it should be about 130v. Mine shows 120v. Any thoughts??
thanks, jim

Just thoughts, Jim, not solutions.

Thought #1 is as you load the engine the fuel demand rises. If the flow into the float bowl cannot keep up with the fuel burned a shut-down will occur. Remove the tank petcock and check the screen for trash. Clean as needed. Just for giggles, loosen the tank fuel cap to be sure there is enough air getting into the tank. We have found some that do not vent properly. Also check to be sure the spark arrestor screen in the end of the muffler is not clogged with carbon or trash from inside the muffler. As exhaust pressure builds due to an increased load an exhaust restriction can kill an engine.

You can adjust the DC excitation voltage from the AVR and thus the AC output voltage by turning the tiny brass head screw on the 10-turn pot on the backside of the AVR. Of course, you must remove the end cap and the AVR to access the adjustment screw. Adjust while holding the AVR, engine running, with a good DVM connected to the output.

Remember that voltage accounts for electron pressure and current for the number of electrons. Increasing the voltage may give you more punch when starting a high current load that causes voltage drop in the wiring and a rapid collapse of the magnetic field, but it does not give you more overall power. From the symptoms you describe, I doubt that increasing voltage output is your solution.

BTW - I run my 9" Craftsman grinder from basically the same genny without the issues you describe, so something is not right. The genset is more than capable of maintaining the load.

Let us know what you find.

[jasult]

Professor, have a question on my 3500/4000 model 46514 The last few days I have been running my heavy 7 inch grinder that is 15 amp and every few minutes the champ would shut off. First thing after checking oil and was good i disconnected the low oil shut off but that did not help.Fuel supply looks good as I removed bowl and checked flow with float working. Even with choke half on when cold did same thing.
If i run my smaller 4 inch grinder all is good but the 15 amp grinder causes it to stall but always restarts with 1 pull. I would have thought the breaker would trip not the engine stall.
On the web site they talk about the avr voltage adjustment and in 120v side it should be about 130v. Mine shows 120v. Any thoughts??
thanks, jim

[Old___Slow]

Small engines are a interesting lot. I spent a few years in S.E/Asia and found that in most areas, B&S engine parts were available and easy to find. In that part of the world they have what are known as "pump boats" by the thousands, most all powered by B&S engines. Everywhere also were portable gensets, powered by the same size engines. After returning to the US, notice was taken of all the small gensets on the market. Pepboys, HF and etc. I bought a older MH with a defunct OEM genset and after much frustration, the hunt was on for a less expensive power supply. RV.net/tech issues and this thread was located. The Champion was the brand most talked about. I followed suit and bought the 3000w C46540. This thread continues to promote this brand. So thus, many interesting aspects are discussed. I have followed through and looked for various links suggested by posters to this thread and one has been,

'AllExperts.com/small engines and China Dave aka Expert David R-Globaltek LLC'

He states this, Champion branded engines come from 'Lifan', just one of 8/10 major engine mfg (builders). Some of the others are,
Loncin,Zongshen,Rato,LCT,Yamakoyo,Ducar,Grayhound' and then we see JD on some engines . All listed as 'copies' of the Honda engine. My take on the Champion (CPE) equipment success is partly due to a vary good engine supply.

A note to the previous post. I too have noticed some 3000w Chinese gensets list their engines as 5.5hp and others 6.5hp. So, perhaps we would better be served looking at the listed 'cc'. What might be a good hp rating for the 79cc engine?

[N9WOS]

And I have also run across a little difference in how briggs and Honda rate their engines.

When I seen that a 11hp OHV Honda has 337cc and a 11 hp OHV Briggs has 391cc, I decided to dig a little bit more. I found out that Honda rates their engines in some form of gross horsepower measurement. On a few sites I found the actual net ratings for the normal line of Honda engines.

The 11HP Honda is actually 9.5HP.

If you do the math……… (9.5hp/337cc)391cc=11.022.
That closely correlates with the Briggs rated horsepower, which means they are rating theirs in net HP.

So…….. Honda engines….. real horsepower……
Model, rated HP, real HP.
GX100 3HP 2.5HP
GX120 4HP 3.5HP
GX160 5.5HP 4.8HP
GX200 6.5HP 5.5HP
GX240 8HP 7.1HP
GX270 9HP 8HP
GX340 11HP 9.5HP
GX390 13HP 11HP
GX610 18HP 16.6HP
GX620 20HP 18.1HP
GX670 24HP 20.5HP

So…….If you had a10HP briggs engine, and you wanted to buy a Honda engine that will be guarantied to have at least the same continuous capacity as the briggs, you need to buy a 13HP Honda engine.

Conversely, a Briggs generator with a 5.5HP engine should be able to handle the same items as a Honda with a 6.5HP engine.

Some of the china clone engines are using the net horsepower, and some are using the gross horsepower. That is why some have the 98cc engine listed as 2.5HP and some have it listed as 3HP.

[MrWizard]

5 - 6 years ago did that with a generac 4.5kw rv generator

The voltage regulator died no replacement available
I bought a 24v 6 amp p power supply i wired the input 120v power through a doublepole relay
Connected the output the field winding
Used a 12v to 120v inverter start the ps
When generator powered up the relay switched the ps to use the generator 120v
The inverter was only used to provide starting excitation
It worked very well

[N9WOS]

The response of a generator to load application as a function of the voltage regulation method.

That little 2000W peak generator that I complained about in the other thread did prove to be a benefit to my knowledge base after all. Something seems strange about how it responded to the application of a load. Something that was different from all the others I owned. The instruction booklet showed that it was a non regulated capacitive feedback excitation generator head.

But…….. When I took the end cap off, it had an AVR!!!!!!!!!

It provided an unmatched look at how an AVR style system responded to load transits. The generators small rotating mass amplified how it responded to small load changes. And it proved to be the answer as to why the generator could not handle the application of a 1200W resistive load. When I done thorough power test with a variac controlled load, I could smoothly test the outer limits of it’s operation and I found the answer to the problem.

The torque curve of a gasoline engine drops off when you move away from the optimal RPM range.

The function of the AVR will naturally increase excitation in response to a load increase to counteract output winding resistance.

The function of the AVR will also naturally increase excitation in response to a decrease in prime mover RPM. That is because…… With a constant excitation field, a generator output voltage will drop as the RPM drops. So, to maintain voltage, it increases excitation as the RPM drops.

The drive torque of a generator is the function of the RPM and the output wattage. Or roughly, TQ=W/RPM

On a resistive load, the wattage it pulls is constant as long as the RMS voltage stays the same, irrelevant of line frequency.

When RPM falls, The voltage stays the same. The wattage pulled by the load stays the same. That results in a dramatic increase in driving torque required to drive the generator head. While, at the same time, the engine’s torque output capability drops with the falling RPM.

It should be obvious that that creates a positive feedback situation. Dropping RPM, more load torque, less supply torque, which results in even less RPM. Final result, a stall.

On a non regulated head, the voltage drops when the RPM drops. That results in a reduced load, and a reduced drive torque. That is because the wattage of a resistive load drops or increases at the square of voltage. While the voltage output of a generator drops in direct relation to the RPM. So, an unregulated generator running at half rated RPM driving a resistive load, will require one half the torque it would require if it was running at rated RPM. A regulated generator running at half rated RPM will require twice the torque as it would if it was running at rated RPM.


So, how does that cause a problem with my generator?
When you apply a block load to it. It takes time for the governor to catch up. The speed that the engine drops to will be the determining factor as to the question of it’s ability to handle the load application. If the speed drops to a point where the required torque is greater than what the engine can deliver at that RPM, then the engine speed will drop to the point that it stalls. Even if it can easily handle the load when it is slowly applied.

On my generator in question. If I used a variac to slowly apply a 2KW resistive load. I could manage to load it to 1.4kw before it reached the ledge and fell into the feedback loop that results in a total stall. When it is sitting at that knife edge, all it takes is the littlest disturbance to stall it.

When I apply a load all at once, the generator can only handle about 800 watts without stalling.

I can apply 1200W of load if I apply the first 1kw in blocks of 500 and allow the generator to catch up. Then apply the last block of 200W.

When the generator goes over that knife edge and starts dropping into a stall, the only way I can avoid the stall is quickly dropping the load to 500 to 600 watts. Then the generator will recover and I can reapply the load.

If I remove the AVR and apply a regulated DC supply to the excitation field to manually control the output voltage. The disposition of the generator improves greatly. I can drop a 1.2KW load on it with ease and it won’t stall out. The voltage drops at first, but it comes back when the RPM comes up. I can even drop a 1.5kw load, on it and it will handle it. The output voltage drops some, which means I have to up the current to get 1.5kw, but it can handle it.

When I used the variac controlled 2kw load, I could push it past 1.5kw but the engine slowly drops in speed as you apply more load. The engine is obviously at full throttle.

It also seams to handle starting motors a lot easier when it is operating unregulated…. Well…. I was kind of expecting this result. The reactive current that a motor pulls will go up as the line frequency decreases, so long as the voltage stays the same. So, as the generator slows, the motor will start pulling more current, which piled on top of the other things going on with the generator, makes the positive feedback even worse. A non AVR generator will reduce it’s voltage as the speed drops. That prevents the motor from drawing more reactive current as the line frequency drops.

Remember. The metal in an electric motor’s armature is designed to operate at just below saturation. Reducing the line frequency in an inductive circuit caused a greater field to build up in the metal of that inductor. That is why you can not use an American 60hz transformer/motor in the UK 50hz. It will overheat from saturation.

In a non regulated generator, the armature is designed to operate at saturation. That is what regulates it’s voltage. The generator head will always saturate before the motor that it runs will. No mater what the operating speed.

In a regulated generator, the head is not even close to saturation. When the speed drops, and the voltage stays the same, the motors it runs will saturate before it does. That saturation will cause an increased load on the generator system and contribute to the stalling of the generator.

The regulated generator in question can output 190v before it saturates. That means that it can put out 120V all the way down to 37HZ which will cause saturation in almost any inductive motor load or transformer if the engine RPM drops off.

It is not as pronounced on larger generators because they have a larger rotating mass which gives the governor time to catch up.

A small generator with an AVR of this size with it’s low rotating mass is basically useful for running electronics and nothing else because it can not maintain speed with the application of a load over half it’s rated capacity (1500W). When it looses RPM it will avalanche into a complete stall. So it will stall if you apply a block load greater than half it’s rated capacity. The stall is a result of the AVR action compounding the problem of a drop in RPM upon the application of the load.

Now, if I could just find a way to convert it over to a non regulated head. The easiest way would be to build a regulated DC supply and set it to maintain a generator output voltage of 125V when it is unloaded.

That will give me something to think about……….

[professor95]

Dan86300zxt wrote:
Well, I think I have my mind made up...

SNIP

^^^Just need to pick a good deal/good price/fast charger to recharge my battery bank I want to utilize...(still stuck here)..planning on 4- group 24 or group 27 batteries....walmart specials.

Dan,

I hope you realize that the terms group 24 or 27 and fast charger do not belong in the same sentience.

You will be mucho money ahead in the longer run to purchase a set of 2 six volt golf cart batteries (series connected) or perhaps a set of 4 that are series parallel connected.

The speed of battery recharge is essentially limited by the temperature of the battery core. Both the 24 and 27 will have closer spacing and thinner plates. They are simply not designed for fast charging.

On the other hand the golf cart batteries are designed so that the possibility of plate damage is minimized due to their greater plate thickness, spacing and liquid volume.

Your other option would be sealed Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) batteries. But, these are $$$$expensive$$$$ and are also prone to permanent damage if charged too fast.

In addition to speed, get a charger with a full 4-stage charge cycle.

I use a Progressive Dynamics PD9170A with the Charge Wizard on my battery bank. I have been extremely happy with performance and recharge times.

[professor95]

MrWizard wrote:
Another loaner or power for the hedge trimmer

Funny you should say that. Those were my exact thoughts. It would be great for my friends that always want to borrow "something" for tailgating at a Red Skins game.

[MrWizard]

Another loaner or power for the hedge trimmer

[professor95]

February.

Of all the months in the year I loath February the most. It is cold, wet and windy. So far, it is living up to its reputation.

It is like the "Night Before Christmas". Nothing is stirring, it is as quiet as a mouse. Christmas Day will be March - the beginning of the camping season for us.

In February I entertain myself with seemingly useless adventures. I catch-up on my maintenance of vehicles and equipment before the emergence of SPRING.

So, Monday I turned to a 2-Stroke, 950 watt camping generator given to me by a friend for, as he termed it, "Parts".

These things are sold all over the place under various names. Their rated power is advertised as anything from 750 to 1000 watts. Prices range from $79 to $199 depending on who has what on sale.



This was the second 2-stroke model I had been gifted. The first was a "King Canada" that had fuel system problems. I did get it to run but never bothered to give it much of a test.

This little 2-stroke happened to bare the Champion logo. I know CPE didn't build it, they just sold yet another model of a different color. I would like to think that it is somewhat superior in specs, maybe even performance tested prior to delivery. But, I don't know that to be factual.

This one had ignition problems, which were resolved with a cannibalized coil from the King Canada.


Cannibalized King Canada on left. Engine on right is a 1942 Clinton sporting an advertised 2-1/2 HP.

Now this surely isn't a 3,000 Watt Chinese genset that will run a microwave or A/C on a camper. Far from it. But, after giving the starter rope a pull and hearing it come to life I began to re-evaluate my prejudice against 2-stroke gensets.

This little machine was kinda quiet. The exhaust note is a higher pitch but there is absolutely none of the mechanical noise that a GX style 4-stroke engine makes.

I proceeded to run it through some testing. To that end I used my standard resistive load test rig -- six 100 watt incandescent bulbs.




Wattage Load


Output Voltage Under Load


Frequency in Hz While Under Load




Much to my amazement, this little genny purred like a kitten with the 600 watt load. Voltage held steady as did the frequency. I was impressed!

I don't know what I am going to do with it. It could power a TV, recharge a battery or possibly brew a pot of coffee. I am sure it will come in handy for something. Not a bad little genny for the price.

[Dan86300zxt]

Well, I think I have my mind made up...
Going with the Champion 46515 unit from a local LOWES for $329.
-adding electric start, off ebay for $100.
-Converting to propane to operate both off the BBQ grill sized tanks and my main LPG tank already on the Motorhome.

*I would use gasoline if there wasn't so many hazards with it. The location of where the generator will be doesn't allow for alot options.
**I'll be modifying the existing cabinet floor and following along the lines of what the professor did for sound dampening and cooling...but adjusted to suit my application.

http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/professor95/enclosure/?albumview=slideshow

***I am going to get crafty with the welder and plasma cutter to open the existing generator cabinet up more, and go bananas with creativity.
^^^Just need to pick a good deal/good price/fast charger to recharge my battery bank I want to utilize...(still stuck here)..planning on 4- group 24 or group 27 batteries....walmart specials.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

Dan -
Just (also) thinking out loud . . . the "what ifs".

What if - you need more fuel?

Availability of Propane -vs- gasoline where you will be staying?
Ability to carry adequate supply?

~

BTW - for the Prof - the lawyer thing:
Two of the guys I worked with had propane vehicle conversions during the fuel crisis of the 70's(?).
One had an 80 or 100 gal tank in the bed of his Chevy pickup.
The other had the same *inside* the back of his Dodge *VAN* !!

BTW - both still on the green side of the grass, LOL!

~

[Dan86300zxt]

🙂
*You hit the nail on the head for me.
Your write up is more than adequate for me to move forward with confidence....I just could not locate it during my many hours of searching. Another great job comment goes to you. Thank You so much!

Now I just need to re-evaluate carefully what exactly I need for power
on our MH and begin finishing buying components.
(thinking out loud)
There is no shore power where we will be staying with the MH for 4-5 days at a time.

-Plasma 42" tv(300watts)
-kids xbox video game(100watts)
-wifes hair dryer(1500 watts)
-wifes flat iron(140watts)
-small coffee pot(?? watts)
-currently No a/c(but might add/customize something small originally deigned for home use...I saw your write up and my wheels in my mind are spinning)
-very small microwave(xxx watts)
-already have boughten a 2000watt pure sine wave dc-ac converter to use off of a 3-4 group 27 battery bank that I will fabricating.(Go Power GP-SW2000 converter)
*need to figure out what is the best charger to quickly charge the battery bank off the selected generator that I will be converting to LP.(this is where I am not afraid to spend $$)
*The original Triad-Utrad a/c-d/c converter is a TU-440-2 which I cannot find any info on, but I assume it is similiar to a TU-540-2(which is a 40 amp converter).


*The original generator cabinet dimensions I have to work with are only 29 1/2" wide x 17" tall x 13 1/2" deep.

-As for the original appliances(the propane stove/range, the Trav'ler a/c-propane fridge, and the propane suburban NT30a furnace and hot water heater)...all work beautifully as they should.
^^^Maybe you might browse over this info and offer a suggestion on a generator size, knowing these things I have stated. We stay in New York State, and there isn't really a need for a/c, we can get away with a box fan...