3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

There is another way, not usually thought of,

Using a transfer switch, between the (2) power sources
( Like is done with built in generators and built in INVERTERS ) and the A/C circuit
This may require separating the A/C wiring from the breaker panel
Basic connect the inverter to default normally closed contacts, the A/C to the common/output side , and OEM feed aka house-generator to the genset-normally open side

Turn on the A/C using the inverter power, then start the generator
When the generator comes on the transfer switch will engage

Now for the problems
Your batteries just took a hit and your converter is going to shift gears to high mode (provided you have a good one)
And the generator is going to overload,
So the converter needs too be off and you need to trickle charge the batteries with a low amp charger like 10amps , or no charging until you turn off the air
If your batteries were charged before you turned on the air, the small charge should be enough,

Also you will need a heavy duty transfer switch, to switch the 13amp running load if you wish to prevent failure because of arc & welded contacts
It must be many times greater than the running load, because of heat a strong arc can produce

I use a relay with 12amp contacts , to switch a 1amp running load ( my fridge compressor )

Our 120v residential fridge runs via inverter or generator, the inverter is Never turned off,
When the generator is turned on, the TS switches the fridge from inverter to outside power,

So by my design specs you would need a transfer switch with 130amp contacts

Do you have enough battery power to start and run the A/C for several minutes
Will there be enough battery power to start the generator while the air is on the inverter

[Dan86300zxt]

Thanx For the info. and confidence Professor.
I have been looking at the IOTA 30amp automatic transfer switch and IF...if I see that by wiring a 3 way switch between the shore power cord and the generator...that I can indeed get the generator to carry the already running rooftop air conditioners load, than I think I'll break the bank and go for a pair of these transfer switches.

(wiring them in the order of priority I am desiring..shore power/inverter on one and on the second...the first units output/generator)

*I have also been staring down the AIMS 3 way automatic transfer switch...which to me is a bit nicer due to the specs they list and the verification lights for which source is being utilized.
-Its claims a switching time of 26ms. for seamless operations of items.
**I have to contact this company though, because I would want to wire my components in the order of 1.shore power 2.Inverter 3.Generator...and I have read that their units order of proirity cannot be changed..and that confuses me....(they claim the designed order of priority is 1.shore power 2. generator 3. inverter)

^^^Should my 3way switch test work properly...I am going to need to know a couple things to assist me with the next decisions I have to make:
-Will the use of a "Modified Sine Wave inverter" change the amount watts required to start the air conditioners compressor compared to shore power?(modified sine wave inverters are cheaper than pure sine wave)
-Based on the info. I provided..(air conditioner uses 1580 watts/13.20amps on high with compressor running, measured after unit was running on coldest setting for 1/2hr)...what size inverter should I purchase? (I am reading that the start up power may be 5x what its normal use is..thats 8000watts, does that sound right?...I mean, I have a 30amp service with a 30amp shore power cord running this now. That 30amp shore power cord is only rated for about 3500 watts, according to the math...please advise!! There is a signifigant price difference between a 3000 watt inverter and a 10000 watt unit.)

[professor95]

Dan86300zxt wrote:
Hey Professor...
Got a technical question.
*Is it possible to utilize two items to feed house power at the same time?
^^^I have been reading alot on home grid tie type stuff...seamless power switching is possible, I just don't know what would be the most cost effective unit to buy to suit my needs. I am unsure if merely utilizing an automatic transfer switch would do the job...)

-The reason I ask, is because, my generator(I have the AP2k digital inverter all custom fitted into my dedicated compartment)...will not make enough power to kick on the compressor to my rooftop a/c unit.(It'll run the fan, but not the heat portion, nor the cooling, generator revs up, but goes into overload and nothing, no 120v output until I turn off rooftop for the generator to "reset"...)

*On shore power, I have measured the rooftop unit to pull a continous 1580watts/13.45 amps while cooling, and noticed that while heating on low heat, pulling a continous 1820 watts/15.3 amps. I do not know what the start up wattage is or amperage.(My meter quit working...I accidentally overloaded it checking combinations of things....)

*I wish there was a way to utilize an appropiate sized modified sine wave inverter to start up and run the rooftop a/c temporarily.....and then start up the generator to let the generator take over completely by switching the inverter to off..

**I have a very good feeling that if the rooftop a/c was running already, that the generator would be able to handle the whole load of it...it's the start up power needs that my generator isn't happy with. (I don't even get a growl or grrr or nothing from the rooftop compressor...because the generator determines the load too high and goes into overload protection mode)

Ideas please...
thnx,
Dan

Yes, it is possible. But, with limitations.

The first limitation is the appliance must be what is know as AC/DC. This would include appliances that are purely resistive like electric heaters, incandescent light bulbs, hot plates or some brush type electric motors as in power tools. With these devices you can usually supply power without regard to frequency or synchronization of the AC wave. But, be aware that if two un-synchronized generators or a generator and inverter are connected in parallel one power source can work as a brake on the other.

The second limitation involves synchronization of the sine wave from the two power sources.

Most AC appliances using electric motors are designed around the principle of the changing polarity of a rotating magnetic field. They are "brushless" and depend upon a clocked line frequency to provide a specific speed and core temperature. When AC power is combined without synchronization there is a very high likelyhood that the forces of the needed magnetic field will counteract each other causing the device to loose power or even come to a complete stop. If motion is maintained, heating and meltdown are inevitable.

Inductive devices such as transformers and solenoids designed for single phase, 60 Hz AC will quickly heat and possibly self destruct when powered from multi-phase power sources. The list of problems goes on - these are merely examples.

That said, it IS POSSIBLE to do something such as you suggest if extremely fast switching is employed. For example, let's say you did manage to start an AC motor from a DC to AC inverter and it was running satisfactorily. Then, power from the inverter was switched off and power from the generator was applied. The switching would ideally need to occur within the time frame of one AC cycle. The electric motor might stumble slightly as the frequency is changed during a particular cycle, but the momentum would allow it to continue even if the second power source were not synchronized upon transfer.

But, alas, we can encounter problems with this simple system depending upon how the appliance is controlled. Many modern air conditioner compressors employ "control boards" that rely upon a totally uninterrupted sync signal from the AC power source. The loss or interruption of the signal causes immediate disconnect from the power source. Another problem is simple inductive (electromagnetic) relays often used to control ATS circuits are much too slow to allow seamless transfer. ATS units that incorporate SCR, Triac or transistor switching have a much better chance of changing at the needed speed. But, unless technology has recently changed you will only find this type of transfer circuity in rather expensive high current UPS switching systems used in commercial service.

Your best chance of success might be a simple break before make manual transfer switch with an extremely fast hand on the handle.

I hope this helps. Perhaps some others on the thread have different ideas or another approach you might use.

[Dan86300zxt]

Hey Professor...
Got a technical question.
*Is it possible to utilize two items to feed house power at the same time?
^^^I have been reading alot on home grid tie type stuff...seamless power switching is possible, I just don't know what would be the most cost effective unit to buy to suit my needs. I am unsure if merely utilizing an automatic transfer switch would do the job...)

-The reason I ask, is because, my generator(I have the AP2k digital inverter all custom fitted into my dedicated compartment)...will not make enough power to kick on the compressor to my rooftop a/c unit.(It'll run the fan, but not the heat portion, nor the cooling, generator revs up, but goes into overload and nothing, no 120v output until I turn off rooftop for the generator to "reset"...)

*On shore power, I have measured the rooftop unit to pull a continous 1580watts/13.45 amps while cooling, and noticed that while heating on low heat, pulling a continous 1820 watts/15.3 amps. I do not know what the start up wattage is or amperage.(My meter quit working...I accidentally overloaded it checking combinations of things....)

*I wish there was a way to utilize an appropiate sized modified sine wave inverter to start up and run the rooftop a/c temporarily.....and then start up the generator to let the generator take over completely by switching the inverter to off..

**I have a very good feeling that if the rooftop a/c was running already, that the generator would be able to handle the whole load of it...it's the start up power needs that my generator isn't happy with. (I don't even get a growl or grrr or nothing from the rooftop compressor...because the generator determines the load too high and goes into overload protection mode)

Ideas please...
thnx,
Dan

[olephart]

Very informative. Thank you. I think I understand how it works. That makes me much more dangerous than just swapping parts! I'm off to collect hoses and fittings.

[professor95]

olephart wrote:
That's good news. It's nice to have options. I thought I was finished bothering you with questions, but I was wrong.

I noticed a photo many pages back where you had the regulator mounted 90 degrees from upright. This would be best for my installation.

Was the Garretson happy when turned on it's side?

I also noticed a few photos where the adapter block was placed between the engine and carb. Others were placed between carb and air filter.

What did you decide was the best location?

The position of the regulator is unimportant as long as you can keep water that might corrode or collect and freeze from entering around the primer button opening. (Note: Some manufacturers and models do specify the mounting position or orientation of the regulator. Always follow the manufacturer's directions.)

Where to place the adapter block? In very simple terms and without a full physics based explanation of airflow and the venturi effect:

Engines that run at a constant RPM (like a synchronous 3,000 watt class Chinese generator) perform well with the block in front of the carburetor (i.e. in front of the throttle butterfly plate). Since the throttle butterfly maintains a relatively stationary position, air flow that creates the negative pressure required to draw LPG into the engine remains constant, allowing for a simple one time mixture setting for the load block - which is placed between the low pressure Garretson type demand regulator and the adapter block.

When the adapter block is placed between the carburetor and engine (i.e. behind the throttle butterfly plate) air flow is reduced when the throttle butterfly closes but vacuum from the slowing down engine will continue drawing LPG into the engine. When the throttle is reopened the engine loads up from the excess LPG and bogs down - perhaps even backfires.

When the carburetor is "drilled" the fuel feed point does not change from that of petrol. The tube is smack-dab in the middle of the venturi where the carburetor body narrows and air speeds up to siphon petrol out of the float bowl lying underneath (also between the choke/intake and throttle butterfly/engine manifold. This position is the best choice for engines that run over a full RPM range - it is also the most invasive and destroys the option for multi-fuel.

"Some" carburetors that have a greater physical mass will have room to drill a new opening into the venturi, which adds a centered feed for LPG as well as gasoline. This is obviously the most efficient for dual fuel on an engine where speed is not constant.

A feed block behind the carburetor is NOT an option for your fixed speed Chinese generator engine.

[olephart]

That's good news. It's nice to have options. I thought I was finished bothering you with questions, but I was wrong.

I noticed a photo many pages back where you had the regulator mounted 90 degrees from upright. This would be best for my installation.

Was the Garretson happy when turned on it's side?

I also noticed a few photos where the adapter block was placed between the engine and carb. Others were placed between carb and air filter.

What did you decide was the best location?

[professor95]

olephart wrote:

Do you notice any difference in starting performance between drilled or adapted carbs?

Nope. You use the "primer" button on the Garretson low pressure regulator for a couple of seconds to put a little LP gas into the intake and then pull the rope. No need to use the carburetor choke either way. On my conversion in the "cave" of my fifth wheel I have electric start, electric prime and electric LP gas on/off via a solenoid valve. The genny easily starts from the inside control panel.

[olephart]

Those are all meaningful considerations when making the decision about which method to use to convert the carb. I appreciate your summary. I am looking for one more piece of the puzzle.

Do you notice any difference in starting performance between drilled or adapted carbs?

[professor95]

olephart wrote:
It's nice of you to say I figured something out. Actually, I'm trying to copy your design as closely as possible.

One more question, please. If the ability to use gasoline is not a concern, would you drill or use the adapter? I'm referencing ease of starting and general operation, not ease of construction.

Thanks for sharing all your knowledge on this subject.

Well, drilling obviously destroys the carburetor should there ever be a need to convert it back to gasoline. This would necessitate purchasing a new carburetor if a gasoline switch back were needed.

The adapter that sits on the front of the carburetor destroys nothing. In fact, with the adapter you can easily switch back to gasoline. As Mr. Wizard noted, it is sometimes easier to slip by an automotive fueling station and pump a few gallons of petrol into an approved container than getting a LPG refill or exchange tank. For that reason, I can run my RV conversion off of gasoline if needed - but never have needed to (yet).

The adapter on the front of the carburetor will ONLY work properly with an engine that runs at a constant speed, like the 3,600 rpm of a synchronous generator. Engines that run over a broad spectrum of speeds like inverter generators are better served by drilling the carburetor or even using an adapter in front and another behind the carburetor.

Be careful and observe all safety steps when doing your conversion. Be sure to check for any leaks using bubble soap or Dawn and wrap all threaded joints with gas rated teflon tape.

I have been extremely pleased with the performance and ease of storage/starting of my two remaining LPG conversions. When done properly it provides a no spill, gum build up, phase separation or the explosive vapors associated with gasoline.

[olephart]

It's nice of you to say I figured something out. Actually, I'm trying to copy your design as closely as possible.

One more question, please. If the ability to use gasoline is not a concern, would you drill or use the adapter? I'm referencing ease of starting and general operation, not ease of construction.

Thanks for sharing all your knowledge on this subject.

[professor95]

olephart wrote:
Thank you. The Briggs belongs to a friend and he wants to do it, too. It will be easy to swap to a Champion when he comes to his senses.

I was planning to use a modified 3/8" T for the load block and make it just like your picture. That OK?

I plan to use 3/8" I.D. hose and fittings from the Load Block to the Copper tube. I'll limit the length to 12". I can use 1/2" hose if you think it is necessary.

Nope. For the engine size and length it sounds like you have it all figured out. You should be just fine.

[olephart]

Thank you. The Briggs belongs to a friend and he wants to do it, too. It will be easy to swap to a Champion when he comes to his senses.

I was planning to use a modified 3/8" T for the load block and make it just like your picture. That OK?

I plan to use 3/8" I.D. hose and fittings from the Load Block to the Copper tube. I'll limit the length to 12". I can use 1/2" hose if you think it is necessary.

[professor95]

olephart wrote:
Say Professor, I'm collecting parts for a propane conversion of my 3000W Champion. Could you confirm a few things? I'll be following your excellent instructions.

1. A 1/4" O.D. Copper tube with a 3/16" I.D is recommended for the feed.

2. A $10 BBQ pit regulator that outputs 11" w.c (about 1/2 pound) will feed the Garretson KN 039-122 correctly.

3. Will the feed tube used on the Champion work on a 8 HP Briggs?

Not sure which feed you are referring to on #1. If it is the feed that goes up through a drilled main jet the answer is yes. But the hose to that piece needs to be larger (see #3).

#2 sounds good. Pressure to the Garretson should be no more than 4 psi.

#3 Back to #1. If the feed tube is the actual carburetor tube you should be OK. The major piece is the load block with the adjustment screw. In all of my successful projects it needed to be bigger - The feed hose from the Garretson to the load block and then to the engine needs to be between 5/16 to 1/2" ID depending on engine size and length of the tube. For an 8 h.p with over 12" of hose I would suggest a minimum of 3/8" ID. At the end of this hose transition to a fiting with a larger OD and the 1/4" ID - something like a barbed or screw-in air hose fitting. Remember - High volume, low pressure, after the Garretson. The photo below is LPG certified hose 13" long from the load block to the fed tube with an inside diameter of 5/16" as used on a 200 cc engine. This is an example of the smallest sizing and length that will work.

How did an 8 hp Briggs sneak in here? Anyway, go by engine displacement, not HP, for sizing. Better to have a hose too big than too small. Also, this set up works best for engines run at a constant speed - like generator engines.

[olephart]

Say Professor, I'm collecting parts for a propane conversion of my 3000W Champion. Could you confirm a few things? I'll be following your excellent instructions.

1. A 1/4" O.D. Copper tube with a 3/16" I.D is recommended for the feed.

2. A $10 BBQ pit regulator that outputs 11" w.c (about 1/2 pound) will feed the Garretson KN 039-122 correctly.

3. Will the feed tube used on the Champion work on a 8 HP Briggs?