3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Cox89XJ]

Professor 95
Thanks so much for the info on the capacitor and the bearing. You are a great asset to this forum.

[gnolivos]

Not sure if this response was directed at me... but anyway to clarify, I never have (or ever intend to) hookup from the generator into my house directly. I simply run a cable from the gen, and hookup the devices (usually 3-4 critical appliances) to the cord.

Its not convenient, but its safe, and it keep the vital things going during emergencies (Fridge, sump pump, furnace, and a few lights).

olephart wrote:
It can get tricky if you are hooking to your home to power stuff during power outages. The main service likely has 2 independent 120V buses. You probably have 120V circuits on both buses that you want to use. How do ya run one hot wire to both buses without booby trapping something?

The reason I use a Reliance transfer switch is cuz it doesn't care which main service bus bar the circuits are on. Just pick the 120V circuits you want to use and wire them per directions. No 240V circuits allowed even though the transfer switch can do it. The switch also physically removes the circuits from the rest of the main panel when in use. You simply can not back feed the other 120V circuits or energize 240V circuits accidentally.

The thing ya have to deal with is the Reliance is also a split bus device, just like the main service. Ya still need to feed 120V to both buses and ya only have one hot leg from the RV circuit.

The transfer switch uses a 4 prong twist lock just like the 240V generator outlet. Somewhere between the generator RV plug and the Reliance bus bars you will have to split the single 120V hot leg to feed both bus bars. I chose to replace the female end of of the RV cable with a 4 prong plug that fits the transfer switch. I used a short #10 jumper wire to connect both hot terminals in the new plug. This routes the single hot leg from the RV plug to both hot legs of the 4 prong plug. When connected, it energizes both bus bars of the transfer switch.

This left the generator and transfer switch completely unmodified - no traps for future unsuspecting people. The RV to 4 prong cable is labeled with a warning. Should someone manage to hook the cable to something with an active 240V circuit, sparks will fly. As usual, there are other methods to get the job done.

[olephart]

It can get tricky if you are hooking to your home to power stuff during power outages. The main service likely has 2 independent 120V buses. You probably have 120V circuits on both buses that you want to use. How do ya run one hot wire to both buses without booby trapping something?

The reason I use a Reliance transfer switch is cuz it doesn't care which main service bus bar the circuits are on. Just pick the 120V circuits you want to use and wire them per directions. No 240V circuits allowed even though the transfer switch can do it. The switch also physically removes the circuits from the rest of the main panel when in use. You simply can not back feed the other 120V circuits or energize 240V circuits accidentally.

The thing ya have to deal with is the Reliance is also a split bus device, just like the main service. Ya still need to feed 120V to both buses and ya only have one hot leg from the RV circuit.

The transfer switch uses a 4 prong twist lock just like the 240V generator outlet. Somewhere between the generator RV plug and the Reliance bus bars you will have to split the single 120V hot leg to feed both bus bars. I chose to replace the female end of of the RV cable with a 4 prong plug that fits the transfer switch. I used a short #10 jumper wire to connect both hot terminals in the new plug. This routes the single hot leg from the RV plug to both hot legs of the 4 prong plug. When connected, it energizes both bus bars of the transfer switch.

This left the generator and transfer switch completely unmodified - no traps for future unsuspecting people. The RV to 4 prong cable is labeled with a warning. Should someone manage to hook the cable to something with an active 240V circuit, sparks will fly. As usual, there are other methods to get the job done.

[MrRchitty]

Goto Walmart and buy the RV 30 amp extension cord. It's 10 guage wire. Just cut the female and put your own style receptical. Like mine above if you choose. Since mine is 120 volt only, I have the 3 prong 30 amp twist lock and the 30 amp RV built in.

[gnolivos]

Thanks for clarifying. Exact same issue I have experienced. Professor95 in this thread says it is not the Voltage Regulator at fault.. may be true... either way, I have found no way to reliably use the 240V outlet to power household appliances safely... same as you! I did call Champion, and they sort of acknowledged the issue too... they kept on talking me into using ONLY the RV30 outlet to power 120V appliances at full 3500W power... *not* the 240/120 outlet.

So, I am looking at the best way to get use RV-30 plug to achieve the same... but without the voltage drop issues that you and I have experienced. I may either build a cord, or replace the RV-30 with an L5-30. Still deciding.

olephart wrote:
I wouldn't attempt to explain why this voltage drop happens cuz I donno. It does happen and the folks at Champion will acknowledge it if ya talk right to em. This is not a Champion issue. All of the generators with this common electrical design do the same thing. Champion says to use 240V only out of the 240V plug to avoid the issue. 240V appliances don't introduce the balance issue.

When I say unbalanced, I mean having more amps being drawn on one of the 120V legs than the other. If ya draw 15A on one leg and 5A on the other, you will see a large drop. If the difference is small, the drop is, too. It wouldn't matter much if the load was light bulbs and stuff with switching power supplies. It could harm refrigeration stuff.

If ya use the 240V for 240V stuff and the full power 120V RV plug for 120V, you have no issues. You can modify an RV cable to feed full power 120V any way you want. I use one to feed my Reliance transfer switch to provide emergency power to the house. Don't even think about using something like this where it can energize a 240V circuit. Blue Smoke!

[olephart]

I wouldn't attempt to explain why this voltage drop happens cuz I donno. It does happen and the folks at Champion will acknowledge it if ya talk right to em. This is not a Champion issue. All of the generators with this common electrical design do the same thing. Champion says to use 240V only out of the 240V plug to avoid the issue. 240V appliances don't introduce the balance issue.

When I say unbalanced, I mean having more amps being drawn on one of the 120V legs than the other. If ya draw 15A on one leg and 5A on the other, you will see a large drop. If the difference is small, the drop is, too. It wouldn't matter much if the load was light bulbs and stuff with switching power supplies. It could harm refrigeration stuff.

If ya use the 240V for 240V stuff and the full power 120V RV plug for 120V, you have no issues. You can modify an RV cable to feed full power 120V any way you want. I use one to feed my Reliance transfer switch to provide emergency power to the house. Don't even think about using something like this where it can energize a 240V circuit. Blue Smoke!

[gnolivos]

Say more. Does this mean that you too experience extreme voltage drops when using the 240V to power 120V loads? Not sure what you mean by 'unbalanced', but I think you experienced the same issue that I have in the past in the same configuration. I don't know whether it is the AVR fault or not (apparently not), but the fact is I cannot use the 240V for 120V loads without experiencing extreme drops of voltage.

Please detail your issue to see how it compares to mine.

olephart wrote:
Yes, you could have the problem. The generator does not know if you are using 240 or 2x120. It only seems able to keep the voltage reasonably equal if the load on each of the 220V hots is reasonably equal. When using the 240V hots to run 120V loads, you need to keep the 120v loads reasonably balanced. You will have no problem. I don't seem to be able to adequately balance 120V loads.

I use 2 generator outlets and 2 cords. One standard 240 4 prong in the Champions 240V plug for a single 240V load and a modified RV cord for full power 120V loads in the Champions 120V RV plug. No, I can't use them at the same time. I cut all loads and flip the switch when changing voltage. I'm sure there are other ways to do it.

This arrangement is not what I envisioned when I bought the generator, but it provides full 240 and 120 power without low voltage. I don't need 240 and 120 at the same time, so, I'll survive. I hear that Harry Potter is going into retirement. Maybe he will drop by and change some of these inconvenient laws of physics to suit me. I did buy all the books and movies for the Grandkids.

[olephart]

Yes, you could have the problem. The generator does not know if you are using 240 or 2x120. It only seems able to keep the voltage reasonably equal if the load on each of the 220V hots is reasonably equal. When using the 240V hots to run 120V loads, you need to keep the 120v loads reasonably balanced. You will have no problem. I don't seem to be able to adequately balance 120V loads.

I use 2 generator outlets and 2 cords. One standard 240 4 prong in the Champions 240V plug for a single 240V load and a modified RV cord for full power 120V loads in the Champions 120V RV plug. No, I can't use them at the same time. I cut all loads and flip the switch when changing voltage. I'm sure there are other ways to do it.

This arrangement is not what I envisioned when I bought the generator, but it provides full 240 and 120 power without low voltage. I don't need 240 and 120 at the same time, so, I'll survive. I hear that Harry Potter is going into retirement. Maybe he will drop by and change some of these inconvenient laws of physics to suit me. I did buy all the books and movies for the Grandkids.

[professor95]

Cox89XJ wrote:
My Kenowa generator won’t put out any voltage. The last time I found a loose terminal, this time the exciter capacitor looks like it has blown out. Swelled up and leaking stuff out. It is a 24uf and 350 volt. Maybe I need to replace it with one with a metal case instead of plastic? I sure hope that fixes it. When I removed the gen cover I also noticed a little metal dust around the roller bearing. I believe I will replace that too while I have to torn down. Less than 100 hours and my hours of repair keep adding up????

The capacitor is most likely your overall voltage regulator. Chinese generators typically offered capacitor regulation or an AVR. Of the two the AVR offered a more consistent regulation and lacked the "avalanche" midway in the waveform of capacitor regulation.

Unlike AVR failure sending output voltage sky high, failure of the capacitor simply killed output. Certainly a lot safer in the event of failure.

Capacitors do "age" and as they do the dielectric breaks down and the plates begin to puncture. Internal heat makes the case swell and if filled with oil it will begin leaking.

A metal capacitor will do the same thing. Once it begins to swell, it needs replacement. Just source a good quality non-polarized capacitor. The cost should be under $10 - not the $30+ dollars the genny manufacturer will quote you. Again - non-polarized, do not replace with a polarized electrolytic capacitor.

Metal dust around the roller bearings are not a good sign. The bearings were designed to be lifetime lubricated. Not sure what they consider as a lifetime but they can wear out, especially when operated in dusty or salt air environments.

Replacing a bearing is not always easy. In most situations it must be destroyed to remove and the new bearing will require a special driver or press to install so as to not ruin it.

Putting a few drops of oil on the bearing is not going to hurt. In fact, it might extend the life of your generator. ALL of these gennys need routine cleaning. I remove the louvered end cap and blow out dirt and dust with compressed air.

[professor95]

MrRchitty wrote:
Since the topic has been brought up about the 240 volt side of the Champion open synch generators, it was mentioned that it appears the AVR senses the voltage on one leg or one set of windings and if you were to use the 4 prong twist 240 volt rated plug, you could split it down the road to 2 120 volt lines/legs.

I want to take my 110 volt 3500 watt Champion which is wired in parallel and rewire it. I want to employ the same 4 pole double throw switch allowing me to have 3500 watts at 110 volt and switch to 240 volts. I know that if I use the 240 volts I won't have a problem powering my well pump. However, if leaving the switch in 240 volt and use the 240 volt 4 prong plug, split it down the line to 2 110 volt legs, am I going to have 1 leg which is regulated properly and the other leg that is not?

Cheez Randall, that is reverse engineering.:h But, I understand your desire to have a 240/120 genny now that you also have the twin 2000i units for camping.

Your well pump. Unless it is a shallow well pump or jet pump that does not exceed 1/2 HP I honestly do not believe you will be successful in powering it with a 3,000 watt class Chinese genny. I know, on the surface it looks like it should purr right along - but it doesn't.

If you are successful in using a 3,000 watt class genny for your well pump that will be the ONLY thing you can power.

I have two wells - one is a 40' bored well about 3' in diameter. The pump is something like 30 feet down in the well and the pump is 1/2 HP. My ELM3000, which has "straight 240" struggled to run this pump - much more so than the RV A/C or any other appliance.

My other well is a 600 foot deep drilled well about 7" in diameter. The pump is "about" 400 feet down. That pump is a 1HP straight 240. My 13HP, 7,500 watt genny will run the pump, but there is not room for additional loads. As far as the ELM running it - no way!

I guess what I am saying is depending on your well, how deep the pump is (which influences motor current) and what the rated HP is your efforts to rewire so you can get 240 may be in vain.

[professor95]

MrRchitty wrote:
Since the topic has been brought up about the 240 volt side of the Champion open synch generators, it was mentioned that it appears the AVR senses the voltage on one leg or one set of windings and if you were to use the 4 prong twist 240 volt rated plug, you could split it down the road to 2 120 volt lines/legs.

I want to take my 110 volt 3500 watt Champion which is wired in parallel and rewire it. I want to employ the same 4 pole double throw switch allowing me to have 3500 watts at 110 volt and switch to 240 volts. I know that if I use the 240 volts I won't have a problem powering my well pump. However, if leaving the switch in 240 volt and use the 240 volt 4 prong plug, split it down the line to 2 110 volt legs, am I going to have 1 leg which is regulated properly and the other leg that is not?

OK - let's back up a minute.

No, the generator DOES NOT have two voltage regulators. Actually, I am not sure how that would work without a total redesign of everything since the AVR actually regulates current required for self excitation. Without the regulator and current control the output voltage of the Chinese genny we reference would be more like 180 (give or take) volts AC.

The design of the AVR and regulator circuit does a good job of regulating both MW1 and MW2 when in series. Actually, the regulation works for one continuous coil by sampling a section and supplying around 19 to 22 volts of DC through the brushes for excitation. The excitation value is for both/all MW coils.

Now, as I noted in my first posting, OHM's law tells us that the more current we draw through a specific resistance the lower the ending voltage will be - meaning that high current drawn from either leg will create a greater voltage drop. What really concerned me in this case was the stated 30 volt differential. The difference between MW1 and MW2 with one leg fully loaded and the other lightly loaded should not be over 5 volts AC. To be higher indicates an increased resistance that should not be there. It is easy to measure resistance on both of the MW lines from the Coleman cord back - why I did not say that in the first place must have been part of a senior moment. BTW - Coleman does not automatically mean quality. It is yet another product manufactured overseas that can have problems in assembly. I have needed to fix many plugs and caps with major brand names that have developed high resistance from overheating connections and friction contact surfaces.

Now, the question of only one leg being regulated - again it is a sampling and yes it is a more accurate sampling when both MW1 and MW2 are in parallel (straight 120 VAC) because current loads on each winding will be equal. The series sampling is mainly designed for the supply of 240 volts without a center tap to split the output. All but a few 240 appliances only require "straight 240".

Use the 30 amp plug, change it to a different outlet if you wish. Unless you have a need for "straight 240" leave the other outlet alone.

But, you have yet to discover why the differential was 30 volts. That indicates there is a problem somewhere and working around it does not eliminate the problem - it only hides it. You need to determine what was causing the 30 volt drop - and it is NOT the method of regulation or an AVR fault.

[MrRchitty]

Since the topic has been brought up about the 240 volt side of the Champion open synch generators, it was mentioned that it appears the AVR senses the voltage on one leg or one set of windings and if you were to use the 4 prong twist 240 volt rated plug, you could split it down the road to 2 120 volt lines/legs.

I want to take my 110 volt 3500 watt Champion which is wired in parallel and rewire it. I want to employ the same 4 pole double throw switch allowing me to have 3500 watts at 110 volt and switch to 240 volts. I know that if I use the 240 volts I won't have a problem powering my well pump. However, if leaving the switch in 240 volt and use the 240 volt 4 prong plug, split it down the line to 2 110 volt legs, am I going to have 1 leg which is regulated properly and the other leg that is not?

[MrRchitty]

I used a twist lock 30 amp with a small piece of 10 guage wire into a 4 inch box with 20amp receptacles and 20 amp rated switch. This combination allows me to attach to the higher rated 30 amp outlet on my Champion open synch 3500-4000 watt generator as well as the Champion twin inverter gensets into the parallel kit. I realize the limitations of the 20 amp rated switch with the 30 amp plug, however, it allows me the option to turn the power off or on when starting or stopping the generators without physically unplugging them. I am mindful of the load I apply to this pigtail assembly, and if it is something you do, you should do the same.

[MrWizard]

Outside of "warranty issues" there is no technical reason you cannot do the plug swap

Myself, I would be more inclined to make my own break out box and leave the generator OEM stock, either way you have to purchase parts, unless you already have the parts

[gnolivos]

Thank you professor, very helpful post. I did swap the loads when I conducted the test, and the problem was gone. I was planning on using the cord with only one side loaded because of this issue, but that defeats the purpose of obtaining full 30AMP capacity in the first place. So I returned the cable... it was a Coleman high quality cable.

I did call Champion tech support again yesterday, this time they escalated the call to a technician. He was not all that surprised at what I explained, the voltage drop etc. He told me best is to use the RV plug to obtain full 30Amps at 120V. He did warn me the cord I am after is possibly non existent...

Professor, I am thinking of another easy solution here... how about I swap out the TT-30 RV receptacle , for a L5-30 3 prong 30AMP receptacle, on the generator? I already have a nice cable that is L5-30 on one end, and 3 regular household plugs on the other.

professor95 wrote:


Well, just trying to help here. I have worked with the AVR's on these things, their principle of operation, voltage regulation and such for over six years now. What I wrote in my first post concerning loading is what happens. A detailed explanation of how regulation works has been posted in the past but finding it in all the stuff that has been posted on this thread is a trick in itself. I don't even remember when or what page I did it. If necessary, I will repeat the explanation.

That said, there is absolutely no way a properly operating generator of your type with a sump pump on one leg and a few 100 watt bulbs on the other should show a 30+ volt differential. Did you try swapping legs as I suggested to see if the problem was the same? If it is the same I would suggest looking at your cord/adapter. If not, you need to return the unit or call the customer service number on the genny and discuss the problems with one of their techs to get some direction as to what they want you to do.

Also, this is driving me CRAZY... So essentially I have a 3500 Watt generator, but I have no way or utilizing the full capacity in my household (for emergencies). I cannot find a TT-30P RV cord with the RV plug on one side, and regular 120V household plugs on the other. That I think would solve my issue.

Again, thousands, perhaps even millions of Chinese open frame synchronous generators of a similar type to your model are operating all over the world with the capability to use the full capacity from the 240 plug. CPE is currently the only company that provides an outlet for direct connection to a 120 volt 30 amp TT plug without an adapter. Their approach is the best for RV usage but not something easily plugged into for someone without an RV. Something is wrong with your genny, adapter/power cord or readings - what you are reporting is not normal. From a distance I would strongly suspect a high resistance contact or connection somewhere in the circuit displaying the lower voltage. Maybe the voltage selector switch for example. One thing for sure, with a 30+ volt differential you should easily find it by looking for either smoke or heat.

I doubt that you will find a TT 30 amp cord that will give you more than one standard household plug. The 30 amp TT to a single standard outlet is a common adapter that any RV store should carry. The problem is getting more than one standard plug on the adapter and going beyond the typical 15 amps down-rating. So, you will have to make the break out box for the 30 amp TT outlet. One simple method is to purchase a 30 amp male pigtail such as this one and then pick up two 20 amp duplex outlets, a 4" square utility box, cord clamp and cover from a home store like Lowe's and wire it up yourself. Takes less than 30 minutes. You may find the same 30 amp pigtail at your RV dealership and be able to save shipping.