3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[eljefino]

Sliding OT, but I didn't know if it was kosher to post pictures, as I didn't see anyone else doing it. 😉 The blinders were/are on my default settings.

My replacement genset is coming completely cross country, California to Maine, via UPS. Got my fingers crossed.

So here's a question that I didn't see answered in the first 170 pages I read, what is the purported advantage of AVR? If my load suddenly lessens, the engine speeds up... if it cuts alternator load to keep from over-volting what's left, that only causes the engine to speed up even faster. Is that the point? To get the governor to correct the engine speed faster? A more precise feedback loop?

[MrRchitty]

eljefino wrote:
^ Thanks: I am a rookie and have this forums settings to not show pictures for me at least.

I have also changed my lawnmowers oil using two adirondack chairs to support the deck at the extreme ends!

When posting, if you click on the "advanced" button it will give you options. One of icons is a picture of a mountain with a sun in the distance. Click on that and it will give you the line to enter the URL. I use 400x600 for a picture size.

When I change my generator oil, I place the unit on my wire tray on the back of the camper. I still think your picture is hilarious!!

[eljefino]

^ Thanks: I am a rookie and have this forums settings to not show pictures for me at least.

I have also changed my lawnmowers oil using two adirondack chairs to support the deck at the extreme ends!

[MrRchitty]

I just copied above poster's link and reposted it so it displays.

That is funny!!!!

[eljefino]

Got shipping confirmation on my replacement, so I had to dry out the dented one for returning. Am glad I did-- local store gave me the 3rd degree before taking it back!

Just thought this pic was funny, if someone is perplexed on how to drain oil from a plug an inch off the floor.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/eljefino/generatoroildrain.jpg

[Goinmobile]

To the fellow who had his Champion quit. I bought a hyundai 3500 and it did the exact same thing---just quit. I returned it for another and after 1 tank of gas it would not start. I took it to a buddy who removed the foam air cleaner----sprayed a shot of gas into the carb and it started second pull. He said the foam filter had wah too much oil in it but not sure why it wasn't getting fuel. I have used it a lot this summer and has run fine since. Just the 17 liter tank costs roughly 20 bucks to fill. Expensive 8 hours of power.

[professor95]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:


Back on-line in less than 24 hours. SG&E said they would have got power back sooner if they had been able to get thru to "The Prof" for troubleshooting.

Think it turned out to be a bad AVR.:W

~

Yea, I had my cell phone off after all the calls from Dominion VA Power about the nuclear reactor knocked off line in our earthquake.

It was not the AVR, it was the protonpercolator diode. :W

[ol_Bombero-JC]

eljefino - although I have a Champ too - the deal from HD is tough to beat for home gen use. I'd give 'em an A+ also!

BTW - the 1.3 mil w/o power was in the West - and "over 4 million".

San Diego Gas & Electric = San Diego County, parts of Orange County (CA) - and parts of AZ & Mexico.

Back on-line in less than 24 hours. SG&E said they would have got power back sooner if they had been able to get thru to "The Prof" for troubleshooting.

Think it turned out to be a bad AVR.:W

~

[eljefino]

I called advance auto's web customer service center and they can't figure out why the champ 3500 shows up as un-buyable on the website. Guy *thought* the manufacturer wasn't releasing them due to some problem on their end. He suggests having a store manager try to order one from the store warehouse, which is apparently a separate process, if not warehouse.

Of course a special order in store can't (easily?) be combined with a 20% off coupon.

Next I called Home depot regarding their out of stock genset I was going to order as a replacement. Got them to knock $120 off a "better" one with same specs-- and a price more in line with everyone else. A+ for them.

[tvman44]

eljefino go for the Champion. Ask local store if they can get it from another store for you.

[MrRchitty]

dupreet wrote:
I wouldn't risk it. I bought a Champion last month. It is a great unit, has a 30a RV plug, and apparently great customer service. If you can snag one in the $250 range at Advance, I would run, not walk!

Todd

I am in agreement. I have one. Paid same price. Performed great through the storm outage caused by Irene. I even rewired it to give 220 volts for the well pump. I have had for 2 1/2 years.

[dupreet]

I wouldn't risk it. I bought a Champion last month. It is a great unit, has a 30a RV plug, and apparently great customer service. If you can snag one in the $250 range at Advance, I would run, not walk!

Todd

[eljefino]

New guy, thanks to this thread.

Sold my old clunker of a generator the day after power came back after Irene.

Have a HF 2 stroke 800 watt as well, for backup.

Went shopping for something new, modern, chonda. Have several 6.5 hp HF greyhound engines on snowblowers and am very fond of them.

Got this GEN3250 from Home depot for a reasonable $230 shipped.

Jokers at UPS body slammed it enough to bust the aluminum "ears" on the engine and gen head, on the air filter side. And they dented the gas tank, but I don't care about that.

I ran the generator, before I noticed the busted ears, and it runs great (quiet) and makes power.

HD will let me return it to the store. Their customer service is coming through.

The problem, is HD is out of stock of this model. The next equivalent is $320. I can get my money back, but I would then be out of a bargain.

Does the group consensus think there'll be another generator in this price range by, oh, the day after thanksgiving? Just noticed the southwest had a 1.3 million person blackout, great, more competition.

Advance Auto has their Champion 3500 for $269, minus a 20% coupon. None are in stock online and the closest in store is five hours away. This thing was out of stock at $299 for a month at least; IDK why they put it on sale.

I have 30 days to decide if I'm returning this bad boy or if it's worth living with its idiosyncracies. I'm mostly concerned that the shock did something inside the generator head... like cracking a solder joint... that will be a latent problem that will pop up later.

I can rig another cross member to support the unused mounting tab on the engine, using the stock rubber mount. This would void my warranty.

I often buy used; something new and returnable with warranty is a novelty in my house. There are also politics involved of me being at work and the wife calling b/c she can't get the generator started, or it's surging, or (insert nag here). If I go jury rigging a brand new thing it can come back to bite me if an even unrelated issue appears.

[bill_h]

professor95 wrote:
Bill.

I have new information that Matt is on vacation this week.

Yeah, I finally got through, and learned that, too. They gave me the name of a couple of local shops for warranty work, and suggested I try them for parts. No luck. Neither of them stock ANY Champion parts.

110 degrees AND a high load, like an RV air conditioner, does add to the risk of AVR meltdown in ANY synchronous Chinese generator in this class.

Is a single AC a heavy load? The gen is rated at 3500 watts, but I know the armature is somewhere around 2800 watts. My AC draws 14.4 amps, which is about 1728 watts. Aren't most of these gens purchased for powering an RV AC? The RV receptacle makes me thing that an RV AC would be pretty normal use, rather than heavy use.

I am wondering if I should make a sun shade for it.

The Wiz removed his AVR from the end of the genny and mounted it outside where it was in "free air". I liked his approach.

Yeah, I like that one too. Maybe even a heat sink and its own cooling fan.

AVR's are "around" $35 and a spare is worthwhile.

Thanks for the tip. Are any other spares good to have?

[professor95]

Bill.

I have new information that Matt is on vacation this week. If you need an over voltage module PM me your address and I will send you my spare. Can get another one later.

The AVR samples voltage from the exciter and MW coil(s) and runs it through an internal comparator and voltage doubler/regulator circuit that supplies the needed regulated voltage through the brush set to the armature. When an AVR goes south the exciter voltage is no longer regulated and the output voltage soars to the maximum possible. I suspect failure of a field effect transistor in the comparator circuit on the failures I have explored. The AVR is potted so you can't see the components but I have successfully un-potted several for examination and circuit analysis.

Shutting down with a load of course causes a voltage drop. As voltage drops current will rise (remember watts = volts x amps) and the AVR does it's best to compensate by increasing voltage/current to the armature. This can cause heating in the P/N junction of the bi-polar transistors of the comparator circuit which "may" lead to failure.

Running generators of this type does involve risks. This is why CPE designed the newest synchronous generator with load delay/shedding circuitry which helps to keep this from happening. Also why they have added the Volt Guard to some models.

SuperGenProducts does have a device called a Killavolt for Chinese generators of any wattage that plugs into an available outlet and provides the same protection as the Volt Guard. It is a good insurance policy for Chinese generators without the CPE Volt Guard (over voltage protector) built in.

110 degrees AND a high load, like an RV air conditioner, does add to the risk of AVR meltdown in ANY synchronous Chinese generator in this class. The Wiz removed his AVR from the end of the genny and mounted it outside where it was in "free air". I liked his approach. AVR's are "around" $35 and a spare is worthwhile.