3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Learjet]

SaltiDawg wrote:
Hello all,

I'm a new forum member and I've read some 55 pages in this thread so far. What a valuable learning experience!

In way of introduction, I'm coming up on 71 years old. Enlisted in the Navy at age 17, subsequently a Congressman Appointed me to the Naval Academy in Annapolis and upon graduation went into Submarines. The late Admiral Rickover accepted me into his Nuclear Power Program and I served in Submarines for 24 years.

I do not own an RV - I had been looking into buying a propane fueled portable generator. Based on the info here and help from the folks at US Carb I worked up the courage to order my gas generator last week and today ordered a "Snorkel" kit from US Carb. (As a Submariner I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I don't know why they call it a "Snorkel." 🙂 )

My generator arrived yesterday and it sits on the floor in my Den awaiting the arrival of the Tri-Fuel Mod kit. I purchased a Smarter Tools STGP-9500EB from costco.com. 7500 Watts Continuous duty, 9500 Watts surge.

I had planned to never put gasoline into the tank, relying instead 100% on bottled propane. US Carb told me today that I really needed to break in the engine using gasoline as the fuel. At some level that actually makes sense. However, I am seeking a second opinion from you learned folks.

So that I'm not totally guilty of not contributing, I noticed some discussions of measuring Sound Pressure Levels (SPL) as an aid to "quieting" our engines. I would point out that there are free and paid Apps for your iPhone or IPad available.

While one might question the accuracy of these somewhat limited Apps, they likely will allow you to see improvements or setbacks in your efforts. (My last job in the Navy was Director of Ship silencing - managing the Navy's efforts to perform R&D to develop quieter surface ships and submarines.)

Thanks for listening.

Welcome,

If you don't want to put fuel in that new tank, maybe there is another tank you could use for the break in. They also, at the time didn't recommend syn. oil for the converted generators. I don't know if they still say that, something about the Ash content? I use Mobil 1 anyway. Not sure about the break in requirement using Gasoline, if that really matters are not. I have one of their converted generators (Yamaha EF2600c) for 7 years now, @ 220 hours on it and have been very happy.

[SaltiDawg]

Hello all,

I'm a new forum member and I've read some 55 pages in this thread so far. What a valuable learning experience!

In way of introduction, I'm coming up on 71 years old. Enlisted in the Navy at age 17, subsequently a Congressman Appointed me to the Naval Academy in Annapolis and upon graduation went into Submarines. The late Admiral Rickover accepted me into his Nuclear Power Program and I served in Submarines for 24 years.

I do not own an RV - I had been looking into buying a propane fueled portable generator. Based on the info here and help from the folks at US Carb I worked up the courage to order my gas generator last week and today ordered a "Snorkel" kit from US Carb. (As a Submariner I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I don't know why they call it a "Snorkel." 🙂 )

My generator arrived yesterday and it sits on the floor in my Den awaiting the arrival of the Tri-Fuel Mod kit. I purchased a Smarter Tools STGP-9500EB from costco.com. 7500 Watts Continuous duty, 9500 Watts surge.

I had planned to never put gasoline into the tank, relying instead 100% on bottled propane. US Carb told me today that I really needed to break in the engine using gasoline as the fuel. At some level that actually makes sense. However, I am seeking a second opinion from you learned folks.

So that I'm not totally guilty of not contributing, I noticed some discussions of measuring Sound Pressure Levels (SPL) as an aid to "quieting" our engines. I would point out that there are free and paid Apps for your iPhone or IPad available.

While one might question the accuracy of these somewhat limited Apps, they likely will allow you to see improvements or setbacks in your efforts. (My last job in the Navy was Director of Ship silencing - managing the Navy's efforts to perform R&D to develop quieter surface ships and submarines.)

Thanks for listening.

[professor95]

wla7 wrote:
I have a 2012 American Coach Revolution that I store in a garage. During prolonged storage I have connected the coach's electrical cord, with a 30 amp adapter, to my Champion generator. The coach's electrical system will not accept power from the Champion generator. The message from the coach system is "no ground". The storage area is a metal building so I connected the generator ground to one of the metal pillars. The message from the coach system is, again, "no ground". Also, is there any chance that the power from the Champion generator will or could damage the many computers in the coach?

IF (and that is a big IF.....) the metal pillars are truly tied to an electrically grounded source like an 8' galvanized or copper coated ground rod, you may safely "bond" the neutral on you generator to the grounding terminal and run a secure grounding wire from the generator to the metal building ground. Under this particular situation you will be providing power to the RV with the same single true grounding source as your 120 VAC commercial power. A "simple" method of making a temporary bond is to purchase a 120 VAC 3-prong plug. Run a #12 wire about a foot long from the silver screw and another #12 wire from the green screw. - nothing goes to the gold screw. Use a red wire nut to tie the wire from the silver screw and green screw together with a single #12 wire that goes to the earth ground. Now, plug it into a 120 volt outlet on the generator. You will be both bonded and grounded as long as the plug is in the outlet.

The so called neutral on a generator does not have the benefit of a true earth ground and as such should NOT be bonded when connected to a RV - which has separate neutral and grounding bus bars. Bonding without the benefit of a true electrical ground will put the metal frame on your RV at an electrical potential ranging from 60 to 120 volts. Not a very inviting situation when you touch the RV metal and earth ground at the same time.

The Champion is a "synchronous" generator and derives its wave form by the timing of the spinning 8 or 12 pole rotor (armature). Since each pole leads-lags the ones on either side there will be some distortion to the output wave form - meaning it is not a perfectly formed AC sine wave. But, unless you are still using old analog TV sets or charging bricks with transformers your risk of damaging anything in your RV is slim to none. Modern switching power supplies are purposely designed to run from anything between 40 and 80 Hz and 90 to 240 volts. Stories about "dirty power" from generators harming electronic equipment and computers would only be true if you were using a Commodore 64 or Atari 800.

There is one exception though........ should the AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator) on the synchronous generator croak the voltage supplied to the RV can spike to as much as 170 volts frying equipment like your refrigerator control board, possibly your converter, fans, heaters, etc. Many Champion models have a built-in VoltGuard circuit that shuts down the engine if the voltage should go over 140. If your generator is not equipped with the VoltGuard it is advisable to purchase a Kill-A-Volt protection module from SuperGenProducts even if your "Coach System" also provides over/under voltage protection. The Kill-A-Volt will provide over-voltage protection to all of the generator outlets. The good news is AVR's rarely fail except during extreme heat and high loads. The combination of both - like running the generator fully loaded in 100 degree heat with an A/C and converter turned on - can spell sudden death.

[tvman44]

Wla7, that is your power monitor telling you the ground is not bonded to the neutral on the ginny, common on most ginnys. You have 2 choices:
1. if your power monitor is a Progressive industries you can flip the switch on the display to ignore that or
2. you can bond the neutral to the ground on the ginny, some say yes some say no.
Your choice.
I usually flip the switch on the display.

[wla7]

I have a 2012 American Coach Revolution that I store in a garage. During prolonged storage I have connected the coach's electrical cord, with a 30 amp adapter, to my Champion generator. The coach's electrical system will not accept power from the Champion generator. The message from the coach system is "no ground". The storage area is a metal building so I connected the generator ground to one of the metal pillars. The message from the coach system is, again, "no ground". Also, is there any chance that the power from the Champion generator will or could damage the many computers in the coach?

[Learjet]

mrekim wrote:
So, if I'm doing my math right, you can draw 19 amps on both nat gas and gasoline with that unit?

That is correct I have load tested several times to 19 amps. I do agree the response time to a large load is not as good as on gasoline.

The other response about the Champion makes me think that since my Champion (from Lowes) has the 196cc engine and is only rated for 3000w (25 amps) it might have no problems on Natural gas.

I use my Yamaha on propane with the camper and Natural gas at home during hurricanes. Ran 48 hrs straight last summer, with only a couple of breaks to check oil. Sure was nice not to worry about gasoline.

[professor95]

The 40008 196cc Champion in my fifth wheel is converted to propane. I have a Champion 46539 mounted in the basement of the Volvo HDT I tow it with that is still gasoline powered. I usually power the camper from the gas generator since it is further away and cannot be heard in the camper, but when unhitched I run the LPG generator in the cave of the fiver.

Bottom line - despite all the "data" that tells you LPG has a lower BTU rating and thus the generator will produce less power does not prove itself to be true in real life usage. I can get the same amperage from the LPG unit as I do from the gas unit. The only difference I note is the LPG unit does not respond to the 15K BTU air conditioner starting as quickly as the gas unit - there is a lag of about 2 seconds on the LPG unit before the engine picks up.

I run LPG on a 7,500 watt Champion that serves as back-up power for the brick and mortar dwelling. It puts out every amp it was designed to produce equally well on LPG as it does on gasoline. This unit ran 24 hours a day for 10 days straight after Hurricane Irene. We are rural so are one of the last to have power restored after a major outage.

While Champion makes NO reference to "Honda" there is no question that the Chinese built engines on these units are clones of the aforementioned GX series. They are extremely well designed, have exceptional breathing characteristics for a small air cooled engine and are capable of sucking in more air/fuel than the OEM carburetor jetting provides. These engines respond extremely well to LPG as a fuel - perhaps due to the size of the valves, duration, lift and ignition timing.

Keep in mind that when used on a synchronous generator the engine runs at a constant 3,600 rpm - which is controlled by a centrifugal governor inside the engine. If it were a variable speed engine efficient delivery of LPG would be much more complicated.

[mrekim]

OK, you made me do a little more homework too 🙂

The Champion 3500/4000 watt generator is 196cc. The Yamaha EF4000 (3500/4000 watt) is 357cc. I'm guessing it's entirely possible that the Yamaha's are conservatively specified while the Champions are more aggressively specified.

[mrekim]

Learjet wrote:

So you load tested it on nautral gas yourself and have 25% power loss?

Just making sure I got it right, because I have a Tri-fuel Yamaha EF2600c from them and I can get full load on nautral gas. I also have a Champion 3000w/3500w, that I was considering the conversion on also...one day 😉

So, if I'm doing my math right, you can draw 19 amps on both nat gas and gasoline with that unit?


I can run at 29 amps on gasoline. At 31 amps it still runs, but is obviously struggling and I wouldn't say the gen can support a 31 amp load.

On natural gas, it can't support that same 29 amp load. It bogs down and although it hasn't stalled, I'm sure it will. I have to remove the load within a few seconds to prevent stalling. I'm too chicken to let it die at full load on purpose.

I need to do some more testing to be absolutely sure that 22 amps is my upper bound with natural gas. I was playing around more and I think it was running with an additional 2 amp (halogen light) load, which doesn't sound like much, but that brings the percent loss from 25 (actually I rounded wrong - it was 24 percent) to 17 percent.

In any case, I'm happy I did the conversion and would do it again. I would also say to go for the CIC (carb drilled for 3 way operation) vs the adapter. On some carbs the adapter blocks a port on the face of the carb and makes it run poorly on gasoline. This seemed to be the case on mine. With the CIC it runs fine on gasoline and you don't need to cut the frame.

[Learjet]

mrekim wrote:
Just an FYI. This is the US Carb CIC conversion. There's about a 25% loss of power running natural gas vs gasoline with 46514 (3500/4000) generator. I would suspect propane would lie somewhere in between (10-15% loss?) but I haven't done any tests.

So you load tested it on nautral gas yourself and have 25% power loss?

Just making sure I got it right, because I have a Tri-fuel Yamaha EF2600c from them and I can get full load on nautral gas. I also have a Champion 3000w/3500w, that I was considering the conversion on also...one day 😉

[mrekim]

Just an FYI. This is the US Carb CIC conversion. There's about a 24% (edited - I originally wrote 25% - bad rounding) loss of power running natural gas vs gasoline with 46514 (3500/4000) generator. I would suspect propane would lie somewhere in between (10-15% loss?) but I haven't done any tests.

[tvman44]

You will not regret the Champion! 🙂

[dcs1968]

professor95 wrote:

dcs1968 wrote:

Well I just got off the phone with tech support at Harbor Freight and for $22.43 I ordered an AVR and $2.92 a set of carbon brushes. Crossing my fingers that this will fix it. Thanks for the help.

Two types of voltage regulation are common on the 3,000 watt Chinese Gensets. Those that use a capacitor as a regulator do not have a brush set. Those that use a AVR or automatic voltage regulator will have a brush set. It is doubtful that your brushes have worn out. A more common problem is AVR failure due to too much heat. Since you were in the desert this seems likely. To cool the AVR air must be pulled over the module at the end of the generator shell (painted end cap). Air is pulled into the generator (actually an alternator) by a fan at the front of the generator shell next to the engine that has its outlet pointing down. When an AVR fails it is more common to have an extreme voltage rise - sometimes as high as 170 VAC. The loss of any voltage output can happen with AVR failure but is much less common.

Please post the results after you replace your AVR. If regulated output returns you might want to consider some of the modifications forum members have implemented to increase AVR cooling.

I replaced the brushes and the AVR and still no go. I am off to go buy the Champion 46533 and stop messing around with this Chicago Electric. The replacement parts they sold me were not direct replacement parts for my model. I was told they might work. Thanks for everyones input.

[bill43mx]

For anyone in the New England area who might be interested, Ocean State Job Lots has the Champ 3500 with remote start in their flyer for $549

Flyer

[professor95]

dcs1968 wrote:

Well I just got off the phone with tech support at Harbor Freight and for $22.43 I ordered an AVR and $2.92 a set of carbon brushes. Crossing my fingers that this will fix it. Thanks for the help.

Two types of voltage regulation are common on the 3,000 watt Chinese Gensets. Those that use a capacitor as a regulator do not have a brush set. Those that use a AVR or automatic voltage regulator will have a brush set. It is doubtful that your brushes have worn out. A more common problem is AVR failure due to too much heat. Since you were in the desert this seems likely. To cool the AVR air must be pulled over the module at the end of the generator shell (painted end cap). Air is pulled into the generator (actually an alternator) by a fan at the front of the generator shell next to the engine that has its outlet pointing down. When an AVR fails it is more common to have an extreme voltage rise - sometimes as high as 170 VAC. The loss of any voltage output can happen with AVR failure but is much less common.

Please post the results after you replace your AVR. If regulated output returns you might want to consider some of the modifications forum members have implemented to increase AVR cooling.