3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[gasser9]

The large brass screw is a plug remove it and onder it is the adjusting screw. These are also sensitive to inlet pressure I strongly recommend a 2 stage regulator wich will maintain 11" water column much better. Always run your engine just a little on the fuel rich side for long exaust valve life.

[jlaustin]

gasser9 wrote:
According to NFPA phamphlet 58 (the lpg rule book used by all 50 states) you must install a positive fuel valve ahead of the KN when you do this you can adjust the kn so that a spit or soap bubble on the outlet will break in 3-5 seconds this will eliminate the need for the primer. you can also rece the spark plug gap by 10%-15% wich will aid in starting, reduce valve & head temperature, & possibly fuel consumption.
DO NOT WSE ANY PLASTIC TUBEING IN A LPG SYSTEM IT WILL DETERIOATE FROM THE LP, THE HEAT IN THE ENGINE AREA WILL ALSO WEAKEN IT!!!!!

I definitely plan to install the valve/solenoid! My primer actuator is working so well, I'll probably leave it as-is, but, out of curiosity, how do adjust the regulator as you describe? Is the adjustment the large brass screw above the inlet?
Regards,
John

[gasser9]

Sorry about yelling about plastic & lpg but I have helped clean up after the fires & "rapid dismanteling" of things caused by this Illeagel use of plastic pipe! Your install of the remote looks GREAT John.

[gasser9]

According to NFPA phamphlet 58 (the lpg rule book used by all 50 states) you must install a positive fuel valve ahead of the KN when you do this you can adjust the kn so that a spit or soap bubble on the outlet will break in 3-5 seconds this will eliminate the need for the primer. you can also rece the spark plug gap by 10%-15% wich will aid in starting, reduce valve & head temperature, & possibly fuel consumption.
DO NOT WSE ANY PLASTIC TUBEING IN A LPG SYSTEM IT WILL DETERIOATE FROM THE LP, THE HEAT IN THE ENGINE AREA WILL ALSO WEAKEN IT!!!!!

[jlaustin]

DUROPOWER 3500ES UPDATE!
As my latest post indicated, I decided to "take the plunge" and convert the Duropower 3500ES's carb to dedicated LPG. I must admit that just after you disassemble the carb and get ready to poke that drill bit up the main jet passage, a little voice DOES rise up and say "Do I really want to permanently alter the carb on a new generator that was running perfectly fine???" However, another little voice replied, "H*** YES!";)

Anyway, I used a 1/4" drill and replaced the main jet with a copper tube with a 3/16" i.d. orifice, angled at 45 degrees, opening facing the intake and epoxied it in place with JB Weld. I had bought some parts from Bob, and the vapor hose he supplied fit right over the casting the main jet goes through.

While waiting for the arrival of the 10' hose and quick connect/disconnects I was going to use, I lined the steel panels of the Duropower enclosure with 1/4" Hardiebacker and used a Hardiebacker panel to close the top of the genset where the fuel tank used to be!:) I made an exhaust extension that turns 90 degrees down and also used header wrap on the exhaust header, muffler and exhaust pipe - hopefully, this well help a little with exhaust heat and noise.

I arbitrarily opened the feed block screw about two turns, hooked the hose up to an old BBQ tank with propane that was at least 10 years old, primed a few seconds to purge the air out of the hoses, AND THE DUROPOWER STARTED ON THE FIRST TRY!!!:B (Sorry about the all caps shouting, but you can see I'm a little excited!) Some minor adjustments and it was purring like a kitten.

Here's the DP 3500ES minus the gas tank - the orange box contains the remote starter I recently installed:


The Hardibacker panel used to replace the gas tank is in the next pic - all the metal enclosure panels on the original genset were lined with foam and I sandwiched Hardibacker panels between them and the attachment tabs. This seems to have worked really well, so I'm going to line the pictued panel with some foam and then put a metal panel over that.


This pic shows the header wrap secured with a stainless steel zip tie (the wrap has been painted with high-temp paint (good to 1200 degrees) - the paint cuts down on the "itch factor" when you're working around the fiberglass wrap and sort of glues/stiffens the wrap in place a bit, too. I also wrapped the entire muffler and exhaust pipe. The header still gets hot, but you can touch it with your finger and it takes a few seconds before it gets too hot for comfort:


The muffler wrap is enclosed by a heat shield that was original to the genset - I put it back on because it helps hold the wrap in place. The exhaust originally exited straight out of the muffler, but I fab'ed a 90 degree extension to run it straight down (that way I eliminated another perforation of the enclosure panels for sound abatement and the sound from the exhaust will be aimed at the ground):


I'm really pleased with the conversion! The genset starts very reliably - I've got the primer in sync with the starter - you hit the starter, the primer simultaneously kicks in for about 3 seconds and invariably, the engine starts about the time the primer has popped up. I "think" I've also learned why you should kill the engine with cutting off the propane and not the ignition - after a long run, I shut it down with the ignition and it backfired - probably due to the unburnt vapor accumulating while the engine was dying. Sooo, I think the next mod will be to add a cut-off solenoid on the low-pressure line to the regulator!

Regards,

John

[jlaustin]

bobandcat wrote:
John,

Why don't you just install the white adaptor plate between the air cleaner and the carb instead of modifying the carb? This will allow you to be able to go back to gasoline if it would ever be necessary. You already have the plate that the Professor was so gracious to make for me last year. It would be probably a half hour installation and you would be ready to start it up on propane.

Hi Bob!
That's what I was going to do intially, however, the DuroPower 3500ES's air cleaner is already practically jammed up against the frame. There is simply no room to install a plate - you'd never be able to get the air cleaner back on without substantial modification to either air cleaner or the frame.

Also, this is going to be a dedicated installation for my fifth wheel. (My house already has a 15kw propane fueled generator and I have a 3500w portable Generac gasoline generator for use on the farm). Since this unit is going to be solely for the RV, it is very attractive to use the RV's propane system and not have to carry a third fuel (gasoline). (My truck runs on diesel.) Since I don't need the gasoline option, that lets me pull the gas tank, which makes it easier to enclose the genset for soundproofing. (I may even install a nifty storage/toolbox tray where the gas tank was!) I'm mounting this on the receiver hitch on the back of the fifth wheel, so any weight reduction from pulling stuff off like the gas tank (which admittedly, would weigh a lot more with gas in it!) is attractive as my soundproofing will be putting weight back on. I am, however, going to use a type 375 quick disconnect fitting between the genset and the RV so in a pinch, I could pull the genset off the RV and use a portable bottle to fuel it - not as handy as gasoline, but doable!

The real reason for all the mods ... I'm having a lot of fun with this! :B

[bobandcat]

John,

Why don't you just install the white adaptor plate between the air cleaner and the carb instead of modifying the carb? This will allow you to be able to go back to gasoline if it would ever be necessary. You already have the plate that the Professor was so gracious to make for me last year. It would be probably a half hour installation and you would be ready to start it up on propane.

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:
Reduce your orifice to 3/16 or less as I did in my write up on the LPG conversion thread.

Another question occurred to me - Some of my parts I bought from Bob and he threw in a copper tube with the 3/16" orifice that I intended to use to replace the main jet in the carb. This tube has a brass fitting soldered on the end. The fitting is probably 7/16" o.d. and had a plastic vapor line clamped on it with a 3/8" i.d.

I obviously haven't tested it yet and it may work just fine, but since vacuum demand triggers the regulator, wouldn't the throttle response be better if a smaller i.d. hose was used? I also think that a shot of primer would work better the smaller the diameter of the vapor line (more primer going thru the carb and not just filling up the vapor hose). Of course, the shorter the vapor line the less important it would be - I'm probably going to have about a 15" long vapor line. Just wondering:h

Regards,
John

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:

Now, for the 1/4" copper tube. I remember you asking about this several weeks back and I responded thinking you were referring to the tube to a plastic feed block placed in front of the carb. If you are drilling out the main jet in an OEM carb 1/4" may be to large. Reduce your orifice to 3/16 or less as I did in my write up on the LPG conversion thread. I am not at all sure the OEM carb can support a 1/4" hole or how it would perform even if it does not drill through the sides of the jet housing.

Thanks for the info - the tube I was going to use does have an i.d. of 3/16".

Another question - is it normal for the trunk solenoid to only activate/depress for about 3 seconds, release for a couple of seconds, then activate/depress again and continue to cycle like that, despite a contiuous +12v?

Regards,

John

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:
I'm working on converting the carb to LPG only using the 1/4" copper line with the 45 deg. bevel to replace the main jet. Here's a pic of the side of the carb:

What does the brass screw (just above my thumb) on the extreme left of the carb do? Do you leave it alone, close it down, or remove it and plug it with epoxy?

That brass screw has been eliminated on all carburetors used on CARB approved engines. It has been replaced with a fixed (non-adjustable) plastic plug or is never drilled.

Since you have it on your carburetor just turn the screw all the way in (clockwise) and leave it there "as is". Should you need to add a vacuum port sometime in the future you can remove the screw and add a tube.

Now, for the 1/4" copper tube. I remember you asking about this several weeks back and I responded thinking you were referring to the tube to a plastic feed block placed in front of the carb. If you are drilling out the main jet in an OEM carb 1/4" may be to large. Reduce your orifice to 3/16 or less as I did in my write up on the LPG conversion thread. I am not at all sure the OEM carb can support a 1/4" hole or how it would perform even if it does not drill through the sides of the jet housing.

[jlaustin]

I'm working on converting the carb to LPG only using the 1/4" copper line with the 45 deg. bevel to replace the main jet. Here's a pic of the side of the carb:

What does the brass screw (just above my thumb) on the extreme left of the carb do? Do you leave it alone, close it down, or remove it and plug it with epoxy?

I also worked on the primer today. I wired a jumper from the remote starter solenoid wire to the primer solenoid. That worked fine for about two cranking attempts and then everything went dead!:h I opened up the control panel for the ES3500 and found that there was a fried 5 amp automotive fuse inside the control panel box. I was obviously overloading the starter circuit with the primer solenoid, so I move the jumper to the starter solenoid terminal that provide the output to the starter and that worked fine.:)

[jlaustin]

This has been really helpful! I wanted to mount the KN within the confines of the genset frame for a clean/compact installation. Here's a mount I came up with:

There is a fairly substantial mounting boss - already drilled! - on top of the engine. I bolted one of the KN's mounting bosses and a cross-strap to this. The strap goes to the other mounting boss and supports the primer lever. The lever is loosely bolted to the strap has has a rubber spacer (piece of gas hose around the bolt) under it to allow flexion back and forth. The other strap goes from the mounting boss to the muffler mount and also supports a retainer for the primer lever. (The end of the primer lever is notched and fits the end of the primer (trunk release) solenoid.

The triangulation of the mount makes it very sturdy. Since I am mounting to the engine, however, I'll probably load it with a tension spring to avoid vibration stress. As per the KN installation instructions, I'm planning to use a flexible supply line since I'm mounting to the engine and not the frame. I'm going to run a 10' supply line out the bottom of the genset (which is open anyway) and put a male quick-connect on the end so I can plug it into the fifth wheel outlet or a bottle with a regulator. If there is too much noise/vibration with the genset mounted on the back of the RV, the 10' hose will allow me to set the genset on the ground a few feet away.

This mount puts the regulator in the vertical plane, but the outlet is at about 10 o'clock and not straight up/12 o'clock. I'm certain I've seen pics on this thread of an installation with the outlet at 9 o'clock (inlet/outlet horizontal and not vertically oriented), so since I'm even more vertical, this should work:@

[toprudder]

I never thought about gravity and the weight of the diaphragm affecting the operation, but that makes sense. For the normal 11" WC regulators used in our campers this might not be as much of an issue, but I have heard/read where the vent hole (for atmospheric pressure reference) should be down so as to not collect moisture inside.

[bobandcat]

jlaustin wrote:
......
I believe I have read in earlier posts (maybe a few thousand posts back?? HAHA!) that the KN regulator must be mounted vertically for the diaphragm to function properly.

Does the KN regulator just have to be in the vertical plane or does it have to also have the feed block valve at the 12 o'clock position? I could gain a lot of mounting room if I could mount the regulator vertically, but rotate the regulator so the feed block valve exits at about the 9 or 10 o'clock position. Will this work? Anyone done this?......


Regards,
John

I'm still lurking out here watching this thread.

Here is a copy of Garretson's mounting instructions:

Garretson Model KN Fuel Valve Considerations

General
The KN is designed for sensitivity and simple operation. It is used with low–pressure vaporized
gaseous fuels, where dependable starting is a requirement. Because of its extreme sensitivity,
the KN offers excellent results in most remote starting applications (Standby power generators,
etc.). With proper installation and maintenance, the KN will provide years of trouble–free service.
Operation
The KN is an atmospheric zero governor which acts like the float and needle valve in a gasoline
carburetor. air–flow through a venturi in the carburetor creates a vacuum, which acts through the
outlet of the KN on the diaphragm. Atmospheric pressure then forces the diaphragm toward the
vacuum, depressing the lever and pulling the valve seat away from the orifice, which allows fuel
to flow as long as the demand persists. When the vacuum ceases, a spring force pushes on the
lever and forces the valve seat against the orifice shutting off the fuel flow. It is important to
remember that fuel should not flow through the KN when the engine is not running.
A properly adjusted KN requires a vacuum of only 0.25” to 0.35” of water column to start the
opening sequence. Due to this sensitivity, most installations do not need priming to start unless
low cranking speeds or restricted and lengthy piping are required. If priming is necessary and a
manual primer is installed, use only 1 or 2 second bursts of fuel and immediately try to start the
engine. If there is a choke on the carburetor, do not use it as this will probably cause flooding and
hard starting. As you can see, the operation of this unit is simple and basic. If you are having
trouble operating the engine, in most cases the fuel controller is not malfunctioning. There is
generally a problem with the engine or fuel supply. so do not make adjustments or attempt to
service the KN until you are sure it is needed.

Installation
The KN should be mounted as close to the carburetor as possible with the arrow on the cover
pointing up and the diaphragm in a vertical position. This helps to minimize the effects of gravity
on diaphragm travel. This unit should also be placed for easy access to the primer if provided.
There are two sets of mounting holes provided. either set of mounts will adequately support the
KN. The bottom set of holes has a 1 3/4” bolt spacing for use with all Garretson universal
mounting brackets. The mounting bosses on the cover are spaced (5 3/4”) apart for use with 5/16
bolts.
Before installing the fuel supply line, be sure that the gas pressure is no more than the maximum
inlet pressure shown on the front of the KN. If the pressure is greater, leakage could result in a
fire hazard and or hard starting. The piping to the inlet should be of sufficient size to allow full
flow to the KN. This is very important in natural gas installations as any restrictions can affect
engine performance. If a solenoid is used ahead of the KN in the low– pressure line, it should
have an orifice at least as big as the orifice in the KN. Flexible piping to the inlet should be used
to prevent cracking from vibration if the KN is mounted on the engine or other vibrating surface.
Note: Thread sealing compound should be used on all pipe thread fittings between the KN and
the fuel supply tank, being careful not to get any inside the inlet or fittings. Excess
compound could collect on the seat and orifice and cause hazardous leakage, resulting in
poor performance. After piping is complete, turn on the gas and use a soap solution to
check all fittings for leaks.
If an electric solenoid primer is used, follow the wiring and adjusting instructions furnished
separately. kit by connecting into a pressure line at a reduced pressure, call us. The KN outlet is
3/8 NPT and if an outlet fitting has not been provided, select and insert a suitable vapor fitting
taking care not to allow any chips or dirt to enter the outlet. Use of street ells or conventional pipe
fittings in the fuel line between the KN and the carburetor is not recommended as they may
restrict the flow of fuel.
Once installation of a properly sized fuel hose between the KN and carburetor is completed, if
you are installing a complete conversion return to the instructions. For field replacement
applications the unit is ready for service.

[professor95]

jlaustin wrote:


I believe I have read in earlier posts (maybe a few thousand posts back?? HAHA!) that the KN regulator must be mounted vertically for the diaphragm to function properly.

Does the KN regulator just have to be in the vertical plane or does it have to also have the feed block valve at the 12 o'clock position? I could gain a lot of mounting room if I could mount the regulator vertically, but rotate the regulator so the feed block valve exits at about the 9 or 10 o'clock position. Will this work? Anyone done this?

Also, I note that there are two threaded holes at the 4 and 8 o'clock position (if you have the outlet at 12 o'clock) that appear to open inside the regulator. The holes are on the primer side of the casing and look to be about 3/8" in diameter. Are these vent holes? Would it impair any function if I "borrowed" one of these threaded holes and put a bolt in it for one of the mounts?

Regards,
John

John,

I do not remember any actual requirement that the K&N be in the vertical position. But, that is the position I have elected to use for all of my set-ups. I am sitting here trying to think "so what if" and honestly cannot come up with any problems for changing position. Now, that does not mean it is OK.... just that this old man can't think of a reason not to try it that way.

Again, give one of the techs at US Carb a call. They have been very good to answer my questions in the past.

You need to leave those 3/8' holes alone if they are the ones I am thinking of. You can use a short 6 inch or so section of rigid black iron pipe to feed the K&N and mount that to the frame or take a couple of bolts/screws out of the perimeter of the diaphragm housing and redo them to hold mounting brackets.