3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

According to WEN (distributor), the breakers are only rated for 13 amps in each circuit. Would a single 20 or 25 amp breaker protect and allow full power (open the unused side of the twistlok) or should a double 20 or 25 amp ganged breaker be used? Will standard home size breakers fit?

You are right in thinking you will be limited by the capacity of the original breaker. If you want to take advantage of full power available you must replace the breaker with a larger unit. Parallel breakers are not a good idea on 120 circuits UNLESS they are tied together so that if one trips the other will cut off as well.

Finding a replacement breaker of a larger size may be a problem since residential breakers like CH, Square D and Murray will not fit. Most local supply sources do not carry breakers like you need.

An alternative approach is to eliminate the internal breaker for a generator by just wiring around it and add an inexpensive external two circuit breaker box (about $7 to $10) and put a residential breaker in it. Wire a plug to the external breaker box for the generator and put a duplex (or RV) outlet in a box on the other end. As long as you are the only one who uses the generator and remember to use the outboard box, all should be OK.... but if you loan it or sell it, there could be a different story.......

Edit added:

I just had another thought on the breaker size thing.......

If each INDIVIDUAL coil in the stator is protected by a separate 13 amp breaker BEFORE they are tied together, there is no need to change breakers. The current in each individual coil should not exceed 13 amps under this configuration (i.e. 13 in coil A plus 13 in coil B = 26 amps).

But, if the combined output of the parallel windings feeds a single 13 amp breaker, you will be limited to the capacity of that single breaker. In this case, you will need to change the breaker.

I think what I would do if I were converting a series coil 220 volt generator with two 13 amp breakers to a parallel coil 110 volt generator is bring the feed from each individual coil out to the breakers BEFORE combining them. This should solve the problem without any additional expense or hardware.

[55yroldkid]

I'm sure this has been asked, but I did a search and could not find the answer. I have the Pep Boy's Power Pro 3500, and have done the "mod" to it(Putting the windings in paralell). My homemade adapter to the RV is wired to half of the original 240vac twistlok outlet. According to WEN (distributor), the breakers are only rated for 13 amps in each circuit. Would a single 20 or 25 amp breaker protect and allow full power (open the unused side of the twistlok) or should a double 20 or 25 amp ganged breaker be used? Will standard home size breakers fit?

[Barton_Family]

bob_b wrote:
It is all hinged with duct tape. I have a separate panel that I can place on the side (to complete the fourth side of the box) or I can place it on top to protect it from the rain. It seems to make the noise manageable.

I too used duct tape. It didn't hold up very well. I may try to readhere the panels with construction adhesive or use the fasteners designed for such panels, then use small door hinges instead of duct tape, so I can pull the pins and store them flat. Trying to balance and stand the panels up after the tape let go was a royal pain. I am sure it was funny to watch though. Darn close to juggling. 🙂

[bob_b1]

I have the PP 3500 which is similar as your Amico. I too have constructed a three-sided sound shield using acoustical ceiling tiles and have backed them with thin masonite boards. It is all hinged with duct tape. I have a separate panel that I can place on the side (to complete the fourth side of the box) or I can place it on top to protect it from the rain. It seems to make the noise manageable.

I also run a copper grounding rod into the ground for good measure. Nobody else does this, but it makes me feel safe.

At tailgates, It is funny to see how many curious people walk over to look in the box.

[Barton_Family]

AMICO 3300 UPDATE - SOUNDPROOFING UPDATE

I had my first real test of the Amico 3300 unit I bought last month, this past weekend. It ran the AC just fine, but I have the 7100 Mini-Mach unit. It struggled a bit with the little microwave being on at the same time, but not too badly. I made a 3 sided divider of 1/4" plywood and 1/2" pink foam insulation. I basically cut a 4x8 sheet into 4 sections of 2x4 feet. I set the 4th section over the top of the genset. It did quiet the unit down and I was fairly happy with it. However, my camping buddies each had different units on either side of me. My neighbor to the left was using my Generac 4000XL. My Amico was quieter than that unit at full load - but not enough to warrant a $350 price tag 😞 but when the idle control was turned on with the Generac, the Amico was noticably louder. My neighbor on the left had a Honda EU3000is generator. Forget it guys! If you want something this quiet, there's nothing that will touch it! We couldn't even tell it was running when either of the other gensets was in use, and they were 20-40 feet away! At full throttle, right under my window, the Honda was no louder than the stream we were parked next to. If being quiet is your hope for a genset, as it is mine, due to the close quarters camping we do quite often, save your pennies and buy an inverter style genset. Yes you can indeed purchase a few of these Chinese units for the same money, but they will never come close if noise is an issue. The Amico held up fine, but the Honda's output and plug offerings wins hands-down, especially in the noise output. They all have their place, as with anything else. But when being quiet is a priority, the Chinese knock-offs are not going to get the job done, IMHO, even with a sound shield.

[professor95]

now my Tripp Lite 1800 watt line coniditioner now shows a line fault I did not before the mod.

One thing you must keep in mind with all of these little generators when checking the output with "line fault" monitors is that they ARE NOT the same as your residential power lines.

On these generators, netrual only exist within the generator head itself as a part of the alternating current generating system that naturally "alternates" between positive and negative polarity. This pseudo neutral is NOT tied to true, earth ground unless (or until) it is connected to a line source that is tired to true earth ground. On a TT, this isn't going to happen unless you physically ground the TT's circuit breaker box neutral buss to earth ground.

The grounding (notice the difference between ground and grounding) connection (little round center connector) is connected to the generator frame. It too will not be at true earth ground unless the generator frame is tied to a grounding rod or a device that is grounded. Again, this isn't going to happen on a TT unless you physically make it happen. 30 Amp service RVs have isolated or unbonded ground to grounding connections (per NEC). Your home may have both ground and grounding busses bonded together (depends on local codes). On a TT/RV the grounding buss will be bonded to the vehicle frame. The neutral buss is not. The frame is not necessarly bonded to ground unless lowered metal vehicle jacks happen to make a satisfactory frame to surface grounding connection. I personally would not depend on this connection being a satisfactory connection for safety purposes.

RV manufacturers believe that when an RV is "plugged up" to a conventional service supply that the TT power cord will provide the requisite connections to the power service's ground and grounding connections. Portable generators DO NOT supply the same type of connections. (Perhaps it is OK to say portable generators live "above ground?)

The issue of RV safety and generators was discussed many pages back. I still feel that when you are operating an RV solely from a portable generator that an in-line ground fault interrupter is a worthwhile safety investment (30 amp commerical units are about $100). It is also a good idea to physically ground the generator frame to a good earth ground. At a MINIMUM, this will be a 4' pipe or rod driven into MOIST earth.

Again, do not be alarmed if those 3-light circuit testers or other monitors show a line fault condition from a generator connected to an RV.

[allstar59]

I finally got around to rewiring my PowerPro 3500 per I think it was bob_b's step by step instructions. Seemed to work however...now my Tripp Lite 1800 watt line coniditioner now shows a line fault 😞 I did not before the mod. Any suggestions ? I think I might put it back the way it was.

[kneisl1]

I wonder is it possible to survey all those who bought these generstors? It would be interesting to see how many problems (or no problems) there are in both modified and unmodified units.

[bob_b1]

I ran my re-wired PowerPro 3500 this past weekend for almost 30 hours. It powered the A/C and the microwave. The re-wire bought me an extra 2.5 operating amps. It was 12.5 amps (half of 25) and now it is 15 amps (the limit of the breaker). It powered everything just fine. I am still limitied to just one side of the 15-amp breaker but I think that I may leave it 'as is' for right now. It works for me.

If I get bored, I'll run through both sides of the circuit breaker in order to get all 25 operating amps (29 amps peak).

[Chuck512]

RACEFANTN wrote:
Wondering if Power Pro is changing it's specs. PepBoys ad this week list's the 3500 as a " 25 amp at 120 volt" generator. Maybe they have been reading this thread. By the way, I'll admit it, I rewired my 3500 using wyatt-s's method. It quit putting out voltage after 2 hours at Talladega this weekend. PowerPro said it is a bad voltage regulator. Does all this connect... Just curious.

Hi, I've been lurking and reading, getting more interested in the gensets as I go. I decided to buy a PowerPro 3500 last Friday from a local Pep Boys in Austin, Texas. It was like all the rest mentioned before in that it needed to be rewired to provide full power to my MH. However it did run the AC unit and TV just fine as is. Following the philosophy of a friend of mine, I decided to buy two more gensets today "in case my spare breaks". It was really interesting in that these two new gensets (from a different Pep Boys store in Austin) have completely different panels and schematics from the first genset. The two new ones (as opposed to the one four days old) have a toggle switch on the front to select either 220 or 120 output, and no volt meter this time. There are now dual 120v plugs, and a 220v 30amp twistlock. Remembering back into pages 80-90ish, I recall one gentleman stating that if there is a toggle on the front, it is likely to provide power from both windings to the 120v plug. Based on that, it is indeed likely that the new PowerPro 3500 Gensets are providing full amperage to the 120v socket. The schematic is radically different from the first genset, and many here on this forum could quickly see if that's the case. However I'm electronically impaired and have trouble reading the schematic based on how they drew the connections through the toggle switch for 120v to 220v. I'll try to scan it and get it on a web page if I can locate a scanner somewhere. I know if the big brains on this forum can look at the schematic and perhaps a picture of the new front panel, that may help others in their purchasing decision. I'll give it a go and post back links if I can. Thanks for all the work of those that came before, and to the new info that is sure to follow. This is better than the new Harry Potter book. Best wishes to all...

[RACEFANTN]

Wondering if Power Pro is changing it's specs. PepBoys ad this week list's the 3500 as a " 25 amp at 120 volt" generator. Maybe they have been reading this thread. By the way, I'll admit it, I rewired my 3500 using wyatt-s's method. It quit putting out voltage after 2 hours at Talladega this weekend. PowerPro said it is a bad voltage regulator. Does all this connect... Just curious.

[kneisl1]

Well if you had three feet of snow in a good storm if the generator was on top of the table it wouldnt get snowed over. It good to hear they can run in pouring rain if need be!

[professor95]

What is a good way to protect a generator when operating it in 1) the rain or 2) a snow storm? I was planning to put it under the picnic table if it rains, and on the picnic table under a piece of plywood if it snows.

I think you have a good idea. Except I would keep it under the picnic table rain or snow and place some sort of cover on top of the picnic table to keep water from dripping through.

My home back-up power generator and air compressor are mounted side by side under an open framed 4' x 6' shelter on the back basement wall of the house. I keep a Bsr-B-Q grill cover on the generator when it is not in use. Both are secured with a Grade 5 logging chain and lock. It has been through rain, snow, ice and hurricane force winds in this position and has not been damaged.

Unless it is a real frog strangler of a rain storm, the generator actually should perform just fine sitting in the open with rain on its roof.... er, I mean gas tank.

[catalina30]

guy48065 wrote:

catalina30 wrote:

SNIP
If you really want to have good service, buy from a brand name maker of there own equipment like honda, yamaha sears colman or whatever, don't buy anything that comes from an importer, as in most products from china. This is not a slam for china, more a slam of importers because few of them have good service set up.
SNIP
Kevin
The Right Lane

I would add Champion to the shopping list. From conversations with Paul their tech support guy I am impressed with their level of committment and customer support. The Champion 3500W unit appears to be the same engine, muffler and gen head as the Elim or Power Pro. Same specs, comparable price. The company is based in NY so most of their outlets are there and in Canada. I would think feistycapn should be able to find one in Vermont.

OK! if Champion has a parts department then there you go. Like I said the head is the least of my worries, motor parts are the real biggie, as honda or B&S ... all parts are easy to get. It should not matter what brand you get that would mean Champion has the parts, right?

Kevin
The Right Lane

[kneisl1]

What is a good way to protect a generator when operating it in 1) the rain or 2) a snow storm? I was planning to put it under the picnic table if it rains, and on the picnic table under a piece of plywood if it snows.