3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Matt_S_]

My first post ever.....

I've been working on generators for the last 18 years. I am Onan factory trained, we are dealers for mulitple OEM's. We work on anything from 1000Watt to 2Megawatt. As a general rule, gensets require 1.5HP for every 1,000 Watts produced. That being said, most major OEM's exceed this rule in order to provide a stable, balanced genset when it is called to perform under full load. No OEM exceeds the 2HP per 1000 Watt rule, that would wasteful.

Great discussion on a troublesome topic. Professor, you did some nice work here, I must comment that your observations are solid.
God bless free enterprise!

[drifus]

Sorry All I thought the information was enough.

Generators

[Red_Clay_Ramble]

Looks like ebay categories to me. There are quite a few on there, but of course shipping cost hurts the deal a little.

[LittleBill]

drifus wrote:
I don't want to stir the pot but I found what looks to be a lot of ELM3000's or it's Blue cousin and other Red siblings.

If you go to
All Categories > Business & Industrial > Industrial Supply, MRO > Generators > Gasoline > Up to 3,500 Watts

I found many with other names and they look very much like Professor95's.

Prof, thanks for the education, I hope to have a geney soon that I will be happy with.

um link?

[drifus]

I don't want to stir the pot but I found what looks to be a lot of ELM3000's or it's Blue cousin and other Red siblings.

If you go to
All Categories > Business & Industrial > Industrial Supply, MRO > Generators > Gasoline > Up to 3,500 Watts

I found many with other names and they look very much like Professor95's.

Prof, thanks for the education, I hope to have a geney soon that I will be happy with.

[rdtyphoon]

The Powerwise is model # 03800 according to Checker part #.
It is the 6.5 hp 3500 Watt Rating is what it claims. Professor and Mr Wizards knowledge of electronics is very good. I don't believe that some of these gens will ever produce the power at which they are rated. But at the price of $250 or $300 for someone needing very seldom generator use these 2 units seem to provide a great alternative for forking out the big $ for a Honda or other inverter Genset. And both units are very quiet compared to any other similar type generator, but if you are trying to compare to any of the inverter gensets, you are comparing apples to oranges not apples to apples. These units are cheap enough to have 2 one as a backup. But hopefully it wont be needed. And having the units side by side the only difference I can tell of between the Powerwise and Elim, is the elims ability to produce 220 or combine phases to produce higher output 110. But both units powered everything I could throw at them as far as my trailer was concerned and no hesitation in either. Both units advertised run time is low as well. I got just under 20 hours on about 5 gallons of gas in either unit, and with approx 3 gallon tanks on each that equates to approx 11 hours per tank at half load.
Half load figuring on (Fridge, Converter, Heat, Water Heater, and TV/DVD, 1 hour total Micro, as well as Some Grooming tools Blow Dryer, Dremel, Shop Vac.) I also tested both units with my 13500 BTU AC it powered AC, Converter,Micro for 5 min, and TV, and radio no problems here either. Only ran this way for about 10 min on each unit though. Real test will be when it gets hot enough to have to leave ac on.

[professor95]

my 'convert anything' software says 1 hp = 746 watts

MrWizard's software is correct. Apparently, I either hit the wrong key when I typed 741 watts or was more asleep than I thought. Sorry.

I am unsure of the theory that 1000 watts input is needed to get 746 watts of work - I believe something is missing. But, assuming it is an accurate statement, those numbers would support my 30% loss figure. It has been more than a few years since I actually worked with power loss theories and electric motors. But, my recollection was a power consumption of 746 watts was equal to one horse power - period. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean one full horsepower is available at the motor output shaft. For example, an electric motor can have a bad bearing that diverts much of its power just to overcome internal friction losses. But, even if the motor is wasting this energy trying to overcome the extra resistance, it is still producing 1 horsepower when it is consuming 746 watts - it is just that the energy is expended in an undesirable form. This is what happens with a generator. Energy from the gasoline engine shaft is diverted to forms other than electrical output capacity. (I sure had a lot of Buts, didn't I?)

There is only so much efficiency that one can expect from a generator - unless we have super cooled ceramic bearings and all that NASA type stuff included (which we don't). I often remind my EE students that we can neither create nor destroy energy, we can only convert it.... and losses or undesirable conversions will always be present, which is why we don't have any true perpetual motion machines.

I think MrWizard and I are singing from the same hymnal, it's just that we might be on different verses.

Bottom Line - Don't expect miracles from Chinese generators - or any generator for that matter. You can't get more (or equal) energy out than you put in. 5.5 HP and 3,500 watts output do not belong in the same sentence!

[MrWizard]

rdtyphoon


which model number power wise, it would be nice if some with excel or power point experience would take the various model#'s and store names ,power ratings,hp, etc and make up a cross reference

my 'convert anything' software says 1 hp = 746 watts, i have also seen the number 745.7 referenced somewhere

there is a power factor ratio when using electric motors to produce output horsepower / work

like 1000 watts input to get 746 watts of work ..the more efficient the power factor the more usable work from the motor

I remember this being discussed in a thread about refrigerators

i'm sure this applies to generator HEADS a well..

the more efficient the head the more watts output available per gas engine hp being used

if mfg A says its a 4.5 hp engine and 2800 watts, and mfg B says its a 5.5 hp 3500 watts, and mfg C says 3500 run & 4500 surge and 6.5 hp,

it's a matter of efficiency and A & B are cutting it close and claiming more efficiency and C see is allowing extra Hp allowing for more loss and may last longer ..

[toprudder]

Just like what was posted before I could buy 5 ELim or PowerWise Gennys for the price of a Honda 3000. So even if it only lasts a year, I am still out ahead.

Well, yes, until it breaks when you need it most. It depends on if the generator could be a show stopper for your vacation.

If you could buy 5 for the price of one Honda, buy two and have a backup! 🙂

[rdtyphoon]

Well I purchased a Elim and a Powerwise last week.
Both units run my 13500 A/C and anything else I could turn on in the trailer. I also got to take it out with our trailer to a show as we show dogs. Let me say that both units were quieter than most all of the class A motorhomes with built in gennys at the show. And WOW what a surprise with everything ( Fridge, Water Heater, Lights, TV, and ocassional Microwave usage, got about 12 hours run time out of 1 tank of fuel with the Powerwise unit on day 1 and about 10 hours out of the Elim on day 2. Both units are great cheap solution for RV people that want a decent Generator, but don't want to spend the $ for a Honda. Just like what was posted before I could buy 5 ELim or PowerWise Gennys for the price of a Honda 3000. So even if it only lasts a year, I am still out ahead.

[professor95]

Nancy and I got back home a little after 2:00 this afternoon. The weather at Virginia Beach was not what we hoped for, but it was still great to be out campin’ again. We had more than our fair share of problems with the new Regal, all attributable to shoddy workmanship or poor materials. I may start a new thread on that subject…..

I just finished looking through the new postings on the forum since I left last Wednesday. There was one item that caused me a little concern, and another that I feel needs to be revisited. I would like to address both of them, if I may.

Here is a spec sheet Paul Cole from Champion Power Equipment emailed regarding the Champion unit. This generator uses brushes (not a big deal imho).

I still have not seen this unit, but IMHO, using brushes in a modern AC generator (read alternator) is a major concern! “Brushless” alternators were to the AC generator market what the microwave oven was to the TV dinner market. Brushes (or slip rings with brushes) were always problematic. They were the “hot” spot in the generator, often failing under higher current demands. They would wear, they would arc, the sparks caused RFI, not to mention dangerous conditions around gasoline vapors. Going to “brushless” designs improved efficiency, lowered generator head temperatures, reduced electrical interference, and dropped maintenance cost while drastically improving life expectancy.

I sincerely hope the spec sheet for the Champion is in error.

(the Coleman Powermate generator) Motor appears to be a Tecumseh 5.5 hp OHV which seems a bit small for the rating. Should this be in a different thread of "American Generators" ?

An electric motor that “consumes” 746 watts (corrected from 741 watts 4/4/05) of energy will produce 1 horse power.

While I have been unable to find a true reverse corollary, knowing that if we produce 1 horse power from a gasoline engine and spin the shaft of an alternator to make electricity, we will have losses between the two due to mechanical friction and electrical resistance. Noting the significant heat produced at an alternator’s head, I believe this loss to be considerable - perhaps as much as 30%. Assuming my guesstimate is somewhat accurate (and I believe it is), let’s say it takes 1 horse power to produce 525 watts of power. Multiply that by 5.5 and we come up with 2,888 watts. My experience tells me this is a “reasonable” expectation that coincides with what I have seen in the industry. When literature suggests that we can get 3,500 watts from a 5.5 hp engine, I become suspicious. This translates to 636 watts per horsepower. We must have some gawd awful efficiency going on here! I’m from the old school. When someone tells me something that sounds too good to be true, it usually isn’t true.

I want to repeat a single all important concept when it comes to generators, watts, amps volts, horsepower and all that good stuff discussed on this forum: We are focusing on inexpensive Chinese manufactured generators that will power a Recreational Vehicle with a minimum of noise and be EPA and NPS approved. Industry standards dictate that RV's will "commonly" have a single phase, 120 volt, 30 ampere power cord internally protected by a 30 amp, 120 volt single pole circuit breaker. (I don’t want to discuss all the differences of 50 amp RV’s here).

The RV with a 30 amp power cord does not need or use 220-240 volts. This type of RV uses a single power cord; it cannot split its 30 amp power cord into separate circuits before the breaker panel in the RV. Consequently, everything in the RV must run off of one 120 volt circuit.

Therefore, the generator selected to power an RV must meet these requirements without exception if it is to be satisfactory.

We have discovered that some of the so called 3,500 watt generators will provide only ½ their rated load at 120 volts. This translates to 1,750 watts (or less - often MUCH less) from a single 120 volt outlet. The PEP BOYS Nikota was one such unit. There are others just like it out there! You do not have multiple power cords on a RV to plug into multiple outlets to distribute the load. Therefore, the 3,500 watt rating is worthless for an RV. (It may be great for a home back-up generator or at a construction site.)

RV’s need a generator that will provide their full rated power to a SINGLE 120 volt outlet.

RV’s need a minimum of 20 amps at 110-120 volts (2,400 watts) to even begin to think about satisfactorily powering just a 13,500 BTU air conditioner – not to mention a microwave, the converter or an absorption refrigerator operating on electricity.

Please, please, please, DO NOT allow yourself to be duped by inflated, inappropriate or just plain old wrong performance claims for generators to be used on an RV!

You know.... After all that I just wrote.... I want everyone to know I am no expert on Chinese generators, or any generators for that matter. I am just a tired old college professor who likes to mess with RVs and camp. But, my background in electricity/electronics allows me to form opinions and interpret specifications - and my passion for teaching drives me to share them for your consideration.

I also hate to see people taken by obscure or skewed advertising designed to make an item appear better than it really is.

What was it Grandpa said? Something about buyer beware?

[Clark_W__Griswo]

I was anxious to try out the new Genny today. After talking with the sales person (Pep Boys) he informed me that all of their equipment are filled with oil. Well, after checking the oil I found that there was very little oil in the case. After filling it up, it fired up on the second pull. This Genny is the same as many others as it will shut down or will not start if oil level is low.

I am very pleased with how well the ELIM 3000 runs. It starts easily and it is MUCH quieter the comparable units that I have seen used by Camping Folks. I had it running in the bed of the truck. (It was much quieter than my next door neighbor's power washer which was running at the same time).

However, I am not impressed with the owner's manual. My wife and I got a good laugh while reading! I hope they are not paying their Illustrator a high salary! But after considering what I have, there are not too many things (engine) that can go wrong that couldn't be fixed easily by a small engine "Guru". As far as the electrical side that remains to be seen.
All I could do with the unit today was let it run for about 15 minutes. I did plug in a Shop Vac and it worked fine.
Since my camper is not at the house I have to take the Genny to the campground next weekend for the "Big Test".

I will follow up when I try it out again.

[Red_Clay_Ramble]

"Manager said they could not do that again, as there was high likely-hood of damage."


Makes you wonder how they receive the rest of their inventory, the Stork maybe?

Sorry about your bad luck!

[CarNut]

So Close, and yet so far away!
I sweet-talked a local Pep Boys into shipping an Elim3000 from Ohio to their store in the Detroit area. I picked it up last Tuesday, drove home, and pulled it out of the box. Bits of broken plastic in the box led me to look further. I found one the mounts had broke loose (broke the casting). My guess is someone dropped it in shipping. I loaded back up and drove back to store immediately and got my money back. I had to fly out of town for the rest of last week. I called the store yesterday to see if we could try again. Manager said they could not do that again, as there was high likely-hood of damage.
He did offer to give me raincheck on price w/ no time limit, if they get more in. I am pretty disappointed at the moment. Almost drove to Cincinnati to get one yesterday, but $100 gas kind of defeats the savings. Also, I have been out of town 95% of the time since Jan 12 on business, so I was not anxious to leave home.
Next plan is to wait and see on the Pep Boys deal. If that don't work, I might look into the Checkers auto (but closest is in Milwaukee) or Harbor Freight. My local Costco has not rec'd any of the $280 units mentioned in this thread, but I will also look into that. Costco has been really good about returns when I had problems in the past.
Good luck to the rest of you!

[Fishreed]

Clark W. Griswold wrote:
Well I took the plunge and bought a 3000 Elim today. $279 and a $20 rebate. I haven't tried it yet but I look forward to firing it up tommorrow. I will say I am happy with the size and weight.

You lucky dog you.