Champion Generator & SurgeGuard - Ground-Neutral Bond req'd?

[iwski]

I've got a very similar situation to another post, but it was a little older so I started a new topic.

I have a new Champion 3500 inverter generator and a newly installed SurgeGuard 50A hard-wired surge protector. Upon connecting the generator, it would charge the batteries and power the ceiling fan (after the SurgeGuard start-up delay) but when I tried the 15K A/C, the SurgeGuard faulted and cut power. Tried another approx 15 times, some with AC and some without (no load, only batteries charging). With the AC, usually it would run 3-5 seconds before the SurgeGuard would fault. With no load, the SurgeGuard faulted instantly sometimes and others times it would not fault and continue to charge batteries.

I suspect I need to plug in a ground-neutral bond plug which I knew nothing about after researching to buy fifth wheels, surge protectors, and generators until this happened and I started digging deeper. A couple specific things made me want to confirm this with others here:
(1) SurgeGuard unit does not provide a specific error for Open Ground - there are 4 different errors that can be occcuring with the same combination of lights on/off. Suspecting it is open ground.
(2) Why would the SurgeGuard not fault instantly when connected to the generator (well, after the start-up delay). It would start and run the AC for up to 5 seconds before faulting and would sometimes run the converter continuously with no load except for batteries charging.

Do I need to in fact plug in a ground-neutral bond on this Champion 3500? And are the prongs typically wired the same to know which one (left or right) is the neutral? Thanks in advance.

This is the month-old post similar to my question with another Champion generator but a Progressive Industries surge protector:
Open Ground indication

[otrfun]

Does everything work fine on commercial power? I'd make some voltage and current readings (no-load, full load) with commercial power first to establish a baseline. Then take the same readings on generator power. Then compare.

Any idea what the LRA (locked rotor amps) is for your 15k a/c unit? If it's much higher than 66-68 amps even the Champion 3100/3500 inverter generators, known for their very high inrush current capability, may have trouble starting it under the best of conditions. If your Champion is right on the edge of starting your 15k a/c, a hard-start kit may prove helpful. Of course, that's assuming it doesn't have one already installed from the factory.

[Searching_Ut]

It gets more interesting hearing what the fault codes are indicating. Sounds quite different from what I'm used to fault code wise with my Progressive EMS.

I didn't see where you have run the AC off of shore power since you put the new surge guard in. Knowing for sure it works when hooked to a known good electrical outlet would be helpful in trying to narrow it down to surge guard, ac unit, or generator. Also, are you using any adapters on the end of your power cord to connect to the generator, ie. a dogbone to go from 50 to 30 amp etc.

[iwski]

Still having issues and I appreciate the replies.
I made a neutral-ground bond plug and plugged it into one of the 15A plugs on my Champion 3500. Tried again last night. Warmed up generator for 5+ minutes with Eco mode off. Fifth wheel with 2 12V batteries has been plugged in for 3 days after a week and a half of storage. Plus charged batteries for 3 hours with 10A charger prior to test. Nothing turned on in trailer, just parasitic draws and batteries charging. Plugged trailer to generator with sun aleady set and 80-85 degrees. SurgeGuard kicked in after startup delay, all indicator lights normal and I it left in this state for 5 minutes with no fault from SurgeGuard. Turned on Dometic 15K AC with minimal engine draw-down on generator (no Over-load warning light). SurgeGuard faults after about 10 seconds of AC running. Previously the SurgeGuard fault consisted of a single, loud click. This time it was a series of about 5 cycles of quieter click and louder click. Same as before, Line 1 and Line 2 lights on SurgeGuard remain green and Delay/Caution light flashes red after the fault and power cutout. According to the SurgeGuard manual, this warning light state indicates reverse polarity, open ground, or voltage on ground.

Others here have stated it sounds like a low voltage scenario, although an over or under voltage indication would be 2 red lights and flashing Caution light on the SurgeGuard. Prior to generator purchase I read many, many accounts here and on Champion reviews that a 3100 will run a modern 15K AC with no issues. Some have said a 2800 will run a 15K. So I bought a 3500 to have extra assurance and capacity. This 3500 generator barely draws down when the AC starts. I recently sold an Arctic Fox truck camper and I had a Honda 2000 that would run the 11K AC. It would drag down to its knees on startup, so I know what that sounds like. I have a hard time thinking this could be a low voltage issue unless the generator is defective or the SurgeGuard is defective. I'm an engineer, but not an electrical engineer, so I may need a repair shop to trouble shoot this one for me.

[Bobbo]

iwski wrote:
I have a new Champion 3500 inverter generator and a newly installed SurgeGuard 50A hard-wired surge protector. Upon connecting the generator, it would charge the batteries and power the ceiling fan (after the SurgeGuard start-up delay)

This statement definitively says you do not need a G-N bonding plug. If you did it would not have powered anything at all.

iwski wrote:
but when I tried the 15K A/C, the SurgeGuard faulted and cut power. Tried another approx 15 times, some with AC and some without (no load, only batteries charging). With the AC, usually it would run 3-5 seconds before the SurgeGuard would fault. With no load, the SurgeGuard faulted instantly sometimes and others times it would not fault and continue to charge batteries.

This is classic low voltage cutoff. You need more generator to run that A/C.

An alternative if you don't mind spending about $300 is to install a MicroAir Easy Start module in your A/C. While I don't have one (as I don't have a generator) it has excellent reviews on every forum I read.

As an example, read this thread: https://forums.trailerlife.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/29378915.cfm.

[Searching_Ut]

I use a bonding plug with my champion 2000 watt inverter generators. When I'm paralleling them I only have to have the jumper plug on one of the generators.

As mentioned the jumper plug probably isn't your problem. The surge guards are more sensitive to low voltage than the protection circuits on the generator. My Progressive EMS trips immediately at 104VAC whether it is in bypass or not. With my 15k air conditioning units I can't reliably run the ac with the little champions paralleled without the EMS tripping. With my 3500 watt HF inverter generator, I can start them reliably only if I don't use the ECO setting on the generator. The hotter it is, the more power your ac uses at startup, and the higher your elevation the less power your generator puts out both of which can cause issues. I have a couple hard start caps I plan to put on my dometics at some point but haven't gotten around to it yet. Too hot on the roof right now.

Good luck, and let us know what you find

[23hotrodr]

Yes, you can use a ground to neutral bonding plug on the Champion generator. I don't think this is your problem, however, from your description. If it were a ground to neutral bond issue, I don't think you would ever get power through your surge protector. I think you are getting a voltage drop, or surge when the A/C starts. Just too much for the Champion to handle all at once. You might have to disable other loads when you want to run the A/C.

[MrWizard]

use a new male plug to build your bond
its the 'white/silver' blade/screw that is neutral

and gets a bonding wire to the grd/rnd pin/green screw

the bright brass/copper screw is the HOT

build a bonding plug,
do NOT try 'stick a wire in the slot"

that way its right ALL the time

[iwski]

bob213 wrote:
Why not try a neutral ground bond plug and see if that helps. Easy to make for about $3.
plug

Definitely considering this, am still hoping to get some confirmation that it works on Champions. And anyone know if it's the left or right prong that needs bonded with ground?

[bob213]

Why not try a neutral ground bond plug and see if that helps. Easy to make for about $3.
plug

[iwski]

No, there is no bypass like there is on a Progessive Industries EMS

[MrWizard]

Isn't there a button for 'By pass' mode, on the surge guard