EMS units are recommended for use with commercial power only

[Joel_T]

Commercial power being a campground pedestal, house or a general "grid" type power source. I think they're (Progressive Industries)OK with generators as long as they're ground/neutral bonded and put out a pure sine wave....not modified. Instructions also expressly say "Never plug the EMS into an inverter." In talking with a tech I sensed some wiggle room on this if using a pure sine inverter although this still could technically void warranty.

This really screws up my setup for multiple power sources through the hard wired unit. I now know I should have gotten a portable unit that's easily bypassed. The bypass switch on the hardwired unit doesn't bypass the surge protection board which is what potentially fries when confronted with modified sine wave power, whether generator or inverter.

[Lantley]

SoundGuy wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
that is NOT what I said, and you know it
you are arguing semantics of wording

Clearly you just don't "get it", or more likely are refusing to do so just for the sake of wanting to be argumentative. :S This isn't about "semantics" - i.e. "the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.:" - it's about clarity, about full product disclosure. I've invested a considerable amount in my new Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C and from my perspective I have a right to understand how it works, what it does, how it does it, and why (if at all) it can't be used in certain situations. I'm not interested in blanket statements which in effect say "Don't do that" - such as "never plug the EMS into an inverter" - Progressive's own words in their own EMS owner's manual. Clearly that's not true in all cases and I want to know why. :h The owner's manual also says to never bond ground and neutral yet they themselves sell a generator bonding plug specifically for the purpose. Do they mean inside the EMS itself, inside the RV's breaker panel, or what? None of this is semantics, it's product detail I as an owner deserve to know.

Earlier in this discussion otrfun said - "That why I called PI like everyone else to get a clarification. I just happened to get the owner on the line. He was covering for his tech for lunch. He admitted the inverter warning was probably applicable to MSW inverters, but wasn't absolutely sure." Not absolutely sure?!!! Good grief, this is the OWNER of the company and HE doesn't know?!!! :h

There's more to this than you're aware of ... I've also asked for an explanation as to why my particular EMS reads a couple of volts higher on it's remote display than does my Kill-a-Watt meter or my shop DVM, keeping in mind that neither are Fluke lab accurate and some small degree of error should be expected. To that question I received the following reply -

"As for the difference between the display reading and your voltmeters. Our design measures peak to peak of the ac voltage. Many meters measure RMS ( Root Mean Square ) voltage, this the average power reading and is lower than what our display shows. The two volt difference is to be expected and of no concern, since the unit is calibrated and programmed with this in mind. There is no provision for customers to field calibrate the unit."

Are you kidding me?!! Obviously there has to be more to the story than this since we know that -

Vpeak = 1.414Vrms

and

Vrms = Vpeak/1.414 = .707Vpeak

... so if we see a DVM voltage reading of 120 vac RMS the peak value should be ~ 170 volts. I'm seeing a difference of just a couple of volts so if we assume my particular EMS is correctly calibrated and working properly then there is more to this story than the CSR is either willing to tell me or quite possibly doesn't even understand himself! This is important to me as one of the primary reasons I've invested in this product is for low voltage shutoff which Progressive states is 104 vac ... but is that really the case? At what voltage reading on the EMS remote display will this unit actually cut off incoming source power to the trailer? Based on the CSR response I have no idea and that's just not good enough. :M I've invested in this company's product and while some like you may be blindly willing to accept their vague explanations I am not and will continue to pursue a more detailed explanation of this product.

Sound guy from Progressive's view it ultimately is about liability not full disclosure.
They do not want any responsibility or liability for what you are attempting to do.
Ultimately they are willing to loose your business vs. agreeing to your request for more info and specifics.
You are asking for further explanation and they are saying just don't do it. They simply do not want the liability.
In the end it seems you have found a solution without PI's help.
For reasons mentioned by Mr Wizard I do not find it necessary to use my PI surge with my Onan generator.
While you have found a viable solution to meet your needs. I imagine 99% of PI surge users are content with PI's response and simply do not use the genset with their surge unit.

[SoundGuy]

MrWizard wrote:
that is NOT what I said, and you know it
you are arguing semantics of wording

Clearly you just don't "get it", or more likely are refusing to do so just for the sake of wanting to be argumentative. :S This isn't about "semantics" - i.e. "the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.:" - it's about clarity, about full product disclosure. I've invested a considerable amount in my new Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C and from my perspective I have a right to understand how it works, what it does, how it does it, and why (if at all) it can't be used in certain situations. I'm not interested in blanket statements which in effect say "Don't do that" - such as "never plug the EMS into an inverter" - Progressive's own words in their own EMS owner's manual. Clearly that's not true in all cases and I want to know why. :h The owner's manual also says to never bond ground and neutral yet they themselves sell a generator bonding plug specifically for the purpose. Do they mean inside the EMS itself, inside the RV's breaker panel, or what? None of this is semantics, it's product detail I as an owner deserve to know.

Earlier in this discussion otrfun said - "That why I called PI like everyone else to get a clarification. I just happened to get the owner on the line. He was covering for his tech for lunch. He admitted the inverter warning was probably applicable to MSW inverters, but wasn't absolutely sure." Not absolutely sure?!!! Good grief, this is the OWNER of the company and HE doesn't know?!!! :h

There's more to this than you're aware of ... I've also asked for an explanation as to why my particular EMS reads a couple of volts higher on it's remote display than does my Kill-a-Watt meter or my shop DVM, keeping in mind that neither are Fluke lab accurate and some small degree of error should be expected. To that question I received the following reply -

"As for the difference between the display reading and your voltmeters. Our design measures peak to peak of the ac voltage. Many meters measure RMS ( Root Mean Square ) voltage, this the average power reading and is lower than what our display shows. The two volt difference is to be expected and of no concern, since the unit is calibrated and programmed with this in mind. There is no provision for customers to field calibrate the unit."

Are you kidding me?!! Obviously there has to be more to the story than this since we know that -

Vpeak = 1.414Vrms

and

Vrms = Vpeak/1.414 = .707Vpeak

... so if we see a DVM voltage reading of 120 vac RMS the peak value should be ~ 170 volts. I'm seeing a difference of just a couple of volts so if we assume my particular EMS is correctly calibrated and working properly then there is more to this story than the CSR is either willing to tell me or quite possibly doesn't even understand himself! This is important to me as one of the primary reasons I've invested in this product is for low voltage shutoff which Progressive states is 104 vac ... but is that really the case? At what voltage reading on the EMS remote display will this unit actually cut off incoming source power to the trailer? Based on the CSR response I have no idea and that's just not good enough. :M I've invested in this company's product and while some like you may be blindly willing to accept their vague explanations I am not and will continue to pursue a more detailed explanation of this product.

[MrWizard]

that is NOT what I said, and you know it
you are arguing semantics of wording

what i said was you can't do what you want and get a guarantee whether its safe for the EMS or that it will or will not work statement from PI, which is what you want them to define

i said if you do this you take your chances, because PI won't vouch for it
i also said it should be OK with a generator, but PI was not going to say so
and i said it isn't needed
you want to observe it.. OK,,thats what you want
but a generator is not going produce thousands of volts spike from lighting, it is not going to drop to 100v and state there under heavy load, it will shut down if it can't carry the load and sustain voltage, unless something is terribly out of whack and that is also going to show up under light load
the Hondas, yammys, and champions, and onans are simply not going to do that kind of malfunction and not be noticed
you Want constant view of the genset power from the EMS
but is NOT needed
its just something you want
PI is not saying OK to what you want, and you want to debate that with me.
you have your solution, I think you are on safe ground as far as operation
that doesn't mean i think PI should offer a declaration of such a practice

[SoundGuy]

MrWizard wrote:
i didn't say it could not be done
and i did not say the G/N bond would not work with some INverters

What you said was that the only way we could leave a Progressive EMS in place whether powering the RV with shore power, genset, or inverter is to install a Progressive bypass switch as that would electrically remove the EMS from the system whenever running on genset or inverter ... completely untrue. Doing so does not remove the EMS entirely from the circuit and power still does pass through the unit. The proper solution is to ensure that whatever power is being fed to the EMS is in fact acceptable ... that I've done, it works fine on all three sources, and whether or not you believe an EMS is needed when running on genset or inverter I now enjoy the advantage of being able to monitor various parameters of that source power, especially voltage and current draw, regardless of where it's coming from. All it takes is attention to detail, not vague statements that may or may not describe the true facts of the situation.

[MrWizard]

i didn't say it could not be done
and i did not say the G/N bond would not work with some INverters

i said. PI was not going to tell you what you wanted to hear
i also said the suppressor was not needed with generator or inverter and the system could be setup so that would not involve the suppressor

you and the OP want it "all the time", which means research test and take your chances

because PI is not going to say yes

[SoundGuy]

Joel_T wrote:
I'm gonna take a chance.

Exactly what I've now just finished doing myself BUT NOT without first assessing all the issues involved ... that's taken some time, asking a lot of questions, and using a little common sense to sort it all out. Others may not agree but IMO the effort was worth it as I'm now able to feed my trailer from shore power, my Honda EU2000i, or my 1000 watt sine wave inverter and successfully run any of those feeds through my Progressive EMS simply by plugging the trailer's main service cable into whatever power source I may happen to prefer using at the time. However, the devil IS in the details so this is an approach I'd only recommend to those who have also likewise taken the time to fully understand the various issues involved. 😉

[SoundGuy]

MrWizard wrote:
... they sell a bypass switch, if you or the OP, gets the switch
you do not have to worry about the install, Provided you use the switch

If you'd do a little research you'd know that the Progressive Industries hard wire EMS-HW30C (and EMS-HW50C) already comes with a remote monitor panel that includes a bypass switch. You'd also know that switching the EMS to "bypass" does not bypass the surge protection section of the unit - it's active all the time and it's that circuit which can be destroyed by any signal that isn't true sine wave. The alternative EMS-LCHW30C (and the companion 50 amp version) don't come with this remote monitor panel as the display is on the unit itself and although one can add a PI bypass switch to this LC series it's functionality is exactly the same - i.e. it does not bypass surge protection either.

As far as "worry" is concerned I'm not "worried" at all, just careful. This afternoon I completed my tests and confident now that my particular inverter is not internally wired with a 60/60 centre bonded neutral output I added a G-N bond to it's output, just as I recently did to my Honda EU2000i genset, and confirmed that my EMS-HW30C does accept the output signal from either with zero error and properly outputs it to the trailer. So contrary to your assertions it's obvious one can set their rig up with a Progressive Industries EMS and have it properly pass voltage out to the rig regardless of whether the input signal is conventional shore power OR a genset or inverter outputting a true sine wave signal, simply by plugging the rig's main service cable into that source, no transfer switching required. The upside is not only simplicity of use but it also means the EMS's remote display is usable regardless of whatever the source power may be - shore power, generator, or inverter. I'd say that's a win-win. :B

[Joel_T]

MrWizard wrote:
Sound Guy

you define safe.. as safe to use suppressor ..AS no damage to the suppressor will occur

the OP wants to install in between all power and the breaker box and leave it there
that is NOT what PI says
they have given all the info and description of use, that they intend too

so He can do it their way, or he can take his chances

you want them to define it further, which it is clear, they are not going to do
they sell a bypass switch, if you or the OP, gets the switch
you do not have to worry about the install, Provided you use the switch

you want them to OK a permanent install for all power choices
it is clear they will not

Their bypass switch doesn't work for this problem.

They are "kinda" OKing an install for all power choices AS LONG AS the source is G/N bonded AND pure (and smooth) sine. "Kinda" is hard to define as there're no specs or lists available for choices. So we all have to learn up on oscilloscopes I guess, or take a chance. I'm gonna take a chance.

[MrWizard]

Sound Guy

you define safe.. as safe to use suppressor ..AS no damage to the suppressor will occur

the OP wants to install in between all power and the breaker box and leave it there
that is NOT what PI says
they have given all the info and description of use, that they intend too

so He can do it their way, or he can take his chances

you want them to define it further, which it is clear, they are not going to do
they sell a bypass switch, if you or the OP, gets the switch
you do not have to worry about the install, Provided you use the switch

you want them to OK a permanent install for all power choices
it is clear they will not

[wa8yxm]

Actually it is easier to deal with than you think

on a Motor home with a Generator and ATS you simply put the EMS in the shore line

On a Trailer if the inverter is installed you have either shore power or a portable generator.. Bond the generator and you are good. (usually)

Option two is to modify your install.

Look up a hughes autoformer install. Bypassing a Hughes autoformer is, depending on where it's located, anywhere from a 1 minute job (or less) to a few minutes job.. Basically you pull two plugs and plug one of them in where the other used to go.. That's the entire bypass system.

install plugs and outlets on the in-and out side and your HW is now a PT with Remote.. Very good.

[time2roll]

Plenty of posts with on-board generators producing the wrong voltage.
I agree an inverter generator is very low risk.

[SoundGuy]

MrWizard wrote:
Actually there is no need to use an EMS with a generator ...

Which misses the point entirely. This isn't about whether one "needs" to use the EMS when powering from a genset or inverter but rather "can" we? Sure, problem solved instantly for anyone using a portable unit that normally hangs off a campsite power post but for those of us who have installed a hard wire EMS into our units it's much more problematic. I'm one who did give this some thought beforehand and therefore wired my Progressive EMS-HW30C into my rig using 30 amp connectors so I can, if need be, totally remove the EMS from the incoming source line when powering from my EU2000i or my inverter. Yes, I could have also wired in a transfer switch that would accomplish similar results but for me, considering the limited number of times I might not run on shore power, it's just not worth the expense or effort involved in wiring one in. The point is, it would still be much simpler if I didn't have to do anything at all regardless of which power source I was using ... and THAT'S the point we've been asking Progressive to clarify. It may not be the way in which Progressive intended their EMS units to be used but it is reality so it's only in their best interest to address these concerns with more concise answers ... until they do discussions like this will continue because too many EMS owners don't have a clear understanding of when these units can safely be used and when they can't.

[MrWizard]

Actually there is no need to use an EMS with a generator
Most will not continue to run with a load so heavy that it drags the output voltage too low
And a generator is not going to produce the transient spikes and sustained high voltage surges that can happen on utility power

They make it quite plain, use it with commercial power ( they just don't want to try and detail everything else that might be ok )
Should it work with a good generator?
Yes..It should
But it's not needed !

[SoundGuy]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Every time I read these threads I gaze up at the ceiling and mutter "Thank God I built my own rig". So thanks everone. It starts my day off wearing a smug look ony face.

Joel_T wrote:
LOL but that'd be boring...you'd only have yourself to argue with

Hey, my only "argument" is with Progressive Industries which I think should be more descriptive, more precise in describing under just which circumstances their EMS units can safely be used and when workarounds like G-N bonding plugs can also be safely applied. Heck, they build the darned things, they oughta know! :S While they may intend for their EMS units to be used only when powering an RV with conventional shore power they know darned well that many also use them (or want to use them) when powering from a generator or even a battery powered inverter ... so why the big secret, why make we EMS owners try to figure this all out on our own? :h