Hyrbrid Inverter and generator to run AC?

[Searching_Ut]

I’m looking for inputs from those using hybrid inverters, especially in conjunction with generators to run high load devices like the AC. I currently have 600 watts of solar on the roof of my 5er, with a samlex pure sine inverter powering the whole rig AC wise. The inverter is wired through an auto transfer switch, and I put in an isolation relay to automatically turn off the Intellipower DC converter when the Inverter is switched on, but all other power management we do manually. (Fridge and Hot water to Gas, AC Off etc.)

I’m going to put more solar on the roof taking the system up to 1000 watts, and the plan for when I retire next year is to replace the current 3 group 24 batteries to 4 6 volt jars. I’m not sure what I want to do inverter wise at this time though. I’m thinking of going to a 2000 watt hybrid, such as the Xantrex freedom SW2012 12V 2000W. Besides allowing the wife to potentially use her hair dryer for short periods without my having to go out and fire up on of the 2 champion 2000 watt inverter generators we have, and maybe even some microwave popcorn in the evening. Currently I have to run both generators in parallel to run one of my 15k AC units. Would I be able to get away with just one generator being used, with the xantrex taking care of the compressor starting surge, and using the solar/batteries to fill in the generator output deficit? Looks good on paper, but I’d love to hear from folks actually making it work, if in fact it is working for them.

[pianotuna]

Hi,

AGM's have much lower internal resistance, so they charge in bulk to perhaps 90% vs 85% for flooded.

The lower resistance means less voltage drop.

Of course, the ultimate is now LI chemistries.

theoldwizard1 wrote:
WOW !!! That is a pretty "broad brush" statement !

From my "non-expert" knowledge, there is NOTHING in an AGM battery design that makes is battery at handling high starting loads.

A quick, simple, but crude way of comparing battery A to battery B (assuming they are both deep discharge batteries)[/] is simply look at the weight. More weight means more lead means it is capable of storing more power.

[theoldwizard1]

brulaz wrote:

Searching_Ut wrote:

...
Since I'll probably go with the old dependable wet cell batteries I realize my high demand loads will have to be kept short.
...

As others have said, voltage sag with 4 wet-cell GC2s might be a problem at high starting loads. You might have better luck with 4 AGMs, ...

WOW !!! That is a pretty "broad brush" statement !

From my "non-expert" knowledge, there is NOTHING in an AGM battery design that makes is battery at handling high starting loads.

A quick, simple, but crude way of comparing battery A to battery B (assuming they are both deep discharge batteries)[/] is simply look at the weight. More weight means more lead means it is capable of storing more power.

[Searching_Ut]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

I would go with the Grape solar charge controller. I'd move to a 24 volt battery bank. I'd add a 24 volt inverter.

That would simplify the solar system albeit I would now have 5 pair of panels in parallel. I've found I almost always have at least 1 or 2 panels partially shaded at different times of the day so I prefer keeping each one paralleled if possible. While a 24vdc inverter makes sense, most of my battery use would be 12vdc so I'd end up with a constant conversion loss there that might be more of a downside than would be offset by the higher voltage system for the solar and inverter.

As for the Grape controller, It would be simple, and desireable for the 12vdc conversion capability, I'm not sure 40amps would be sufficient for the auto level/slide hydraulic pump. It tends to draw quite a bit of current, especially in colder weather and is voltage sensitive, shutting down easily if the voltage is to low. I'm also not sure I'd like giving up some of the charging adjustment capability the SC2030 gives me. Of course I wouldn't need to add another SC2030 to my setup if I stepped up to 24vdc, and I could add a 24vdc to 12vdc converter, but I'm not sure it would be worth it since 98 percent of the time I'm using my inverter I'm using it to output quite a bit less than 200 watts, and thus not putting much of a demand on my battery system. A 12 volt system seems to handle that well.

[pianotuna]

Hi,

I would go with the Grape solar charge controller. I'd move to a 24 volt battery bank. I'd add a 24 volt inverter.

[Searching_Ut]

Thanks for all the input guys. While I deal with, and earn the money to buy the toys playing with cutting edge tech, for my RV I prefer keeping it simple. Campfire with the creek keeping the beer cold is an optimal evening if you ask me.

I think I'll wait till spring to decide for sure, but now I'm leaning more to just going simple, 4x6 golf cart batts, 10 x 100 watt flat mount solar panels on the roof in two banks with all panels effectively in parallel, twin bogart SC2030 controllers. I'll also probably sell my little champion inverter gens that have done me well the last 7 years and pick up one of the new 3500 electric start inverter units. With the solar I don't have to use the generator very often for anything but high load requirements. With the old TT the generator was used mostly just for battery charging, with the occasional parallel operation for AC, or microwave at high altitude when the single Champion wouldn't quite power the microwave. For short duration Microwave, or hair dryer use in my current 5er, the 4, 6vdc batts and a cheaper 2000 watt pure sine inverter will probably take care of my needs. I don't need an inverter with battery charger capability because I already have solar, and a PD Intellipower 80 amp converter to take care of battery charging.

[jharrell]

pianotuna wrote:
4 to 24 amps. Does that mean the "generator support" is limited to a maximum of just 288 watts? Heck, the Yamaha 3000 sIEB generator does 500 watts for ten seconds.

By the way, be aware that "load support" is NOT voltage support, at least on the Magnum line.

4-24 is the "shore max" or "max input amps" setting in the Magnum depending on remote, except the Magnum is 5-60 amps.

Yeh I don't think any do "voltage boost" must be something inherent to design, it can add current but not increase voltage. Have to get a autoformer to boost voltage or go full double conversion Charger->Battery->Inverter.

[MrWizard]

I think it means it supports generators with out put between 4>28 any from 500w not to exceed 3400w

I imagine this had to do with input power and pass thru on the xtraxe 2000 inverter

Momentary load start

[pianotuna]

4 to 24 amps. Does that mean the "generator support" is limited to a maximum of just 288 watts? Heck, the Yamaha 3000 sIEB generator does 500 watts for ten seconds.

By the way, be aware that "load support" is NOT voltage support, at least on the Magnum line.

jharrell wrote:
Looks like according to the manual its only enabled if you have the AGS module, it seems to say however it will work with any power source. It has a 4-24a range for gen amps.

So it seems similar to Magnums Load Support AAC but requires an AGS, it doesn't seem to have a Load Support VDC mode.

[jharrell]

pianotuna wrote:
I wonder why they are specific about it being "generator support"? Does that mean it won't work with shore power?

Looks like according to the manual its only enabled if you have the AGS module, it seems to say however it will work with any power source. It has a 4-24a range for gen amps.

So it seems similar to Magnums Load Support AAC but requires an AGS, it doesn't seem to have a Load Support VDC mode.

[westend]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
Not "hybrid" but worth watching the following video, especially the last 5-10 minutes.

Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning – Is it Possible?

That's kind of a demonstration. It's too bad that the Wynns are technically challenged. Yes, they proved that their AC can be run off the inverter but there is no mention of how this might effect their overall use. Running the AC even on their lithium bank (and considering other typical loads) will leave them with a discharged bank in the morning. Starting the AC on the second day will leave them almost completely discharged on the end of day 2, even with the big solar array.

I didn't expect much from a guy that can't plug a tire but they should have stated the SOC of their battery bank at the end of the day instead of sipping drinks on the couch. Who knows, these internet stars may have run the AC all night long and may have woken with no lights and a cloudy day.

[pianotuna]

Hi Chris Bryant,

Thanks for the update. This is one of those times I'm glad to be wrong.

I wonder why they are specific about it being "generator support"? Does that mean it won't work with shore power?

[Chris_Bryant]

Umm- the Xantrex most certainly does do load support - http://xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/freedom-sw-12v_newgen.aspx

Xantrex wrote:
The second generation 2000 watt model has been completely redesigned to include many of the same great features found in its high power counterpart.A key feature enhancement is ‘Generator Support Mode’ which enables the Freedom SW to supplement a generator¹ when AC loads exceed the generator’s capacity. The new generation models also feature improved AC transfer/AC input detection time, providing the ability to transfer AC loads to batteries in less than 10 milliseconds when the incoming grid or generator power is lost. Connected loads are almost unable to feel the power transition due to this quick transfer time.

You can also stack units for higher output or tie them together to get 240 volt power.

[brulaz]

Searching_Ut wrote:

...
Since I'll probably go with the old dependable wet cell batteries I realize my high demand loads will have to be kept short.
...

As others have said, voltage sag with 4 wet-cell GC2s might be a problem at high starting loads. You might have better luck with 4 AGMs, especially since you'll have a generator to keep them charged up when there's no solar or shorepower.

[theoldwizard1]

Not "hybrid" but worth watching the following video, especially the last 5-10 minutes.

Off Grid Solar Powered RV Air Conditioning – Is it Possible?

[jharrell]

Searching_Ut wrote:
Wow, it's good to know the Xantrex doesn't do load support as that is primarily what I was looking for. the way we camp we rarely optimize solar so I can't imagine ever running AC completely off solar/batteries, I was more just looking to not have to parallel my generators and use load support to run my AC with just one.

If you just don't want to parallel generators look into the Micro-Air Easystart, it should let you start of a single 2000 generator.