Need Help Wiring Inverter.

[glamisduner]

I'm going to be purchasing this Auto Switch, and this inverter:

PowerMax PMTS-30 30 Amp Automatic Transfer Switch
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002I04A74?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_2&smid=A2X8N6V4HT8DJJ

Xantrex 806-1210 PROwatt 1000 SW Inverter
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006FLT0IG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=A2VHGGOHXF24LJ

But using only these the problem will be that I have no way to stop the inverter from trying to charge the trailer battery other than switching off the breaker. And I also would like a way to turn off the inverter when we are not using it to avoid power drain.

So I was wondering where I can purchase an on/on switch that would allow me to Turn Inverter On while shutting the battery charger off, and Enable Battery charger to run while turning the Inverter off.

Obviously the switch would need to handle both 12V and 110.

Here is a diagram.

Thanks!
trailer_inverter_wiring by glamisduner, on Flickr

Link to picture
https://flic.kr/p/BHbaMw

[jsikora]

An idea i did in my 5th wheel was I just removed the black wire from the breaker and ran it thru a standard light switch then back to the breaker. When running on inverter I just shut the switch off. The only issue i ever had was forgetting to turn it on ! I had planned to change the switch to a lighted one so i knew it was on, but since replaced the camper...well moved out of it so to speak.

Installed my ATS just after the twist lock in the side of the camper. This allowed all circuits to be live. I was worried about the microwave and coffee maker but my inverter has a shutdown for over current so if she accidentally thinks she can use it it shuts down.

[glamisduner]

MrWizard wrote:
yes common nuetral is a problem, and wired against code

you have too switch both HOT and Neutral, with the ATS for ALL power sources

that means switch both wires from generator, both wires from shore power

AND both hot and neutral from inverter

its the law , because its a Safety issue

I thought that might have been the problem. Isolated the neutral and everything is working as it should! Taking it out next week!

Thanks for everyone's help. I might add a second ATS later (one of those small ones) if I end up with too much load on all the outlets.

[MrWizard]

yes common nuetral is a problem, and wired against code

you have too switch both HOT and Neutral, with the ATS for ALL power sources

that means switch both wires from generator, both wires from shore power

AND both hot and neutral from inverter

its the law , because its a Safety issue

[glamisduner]

smkettner wrote:
I crammed two relays in one box. If doing this today I would have the smaller TS by KISAE.

http://www.donrowe.com/KISAE-TS15A-Automatic-Transfer-Switch-p/ts15a.htm

Looks nice I guess if I have to buy another one I will get one of those. For now I'm just going to run all of the outlets off a single 15 amp breaker. The Hot wire from the output side of thbe breaker is wired into the ATS.

Anyways I got everything hooked up and I'm still having some issues. I found every time I plugged in shore power (from the house) my GFCI would trip on the outlet it was plugged into.

As it is now, I have the ground buss in the ATS connected to the ground buss in the Main panel (via the ground wire in the romex). I found removing the ground wire coming out of the inverter plug solved the problem with tripping the house gfci.

I also have all the neutrals connected together. So when when the inverter is on and the ATS is running off inverter power, but the rest of the trailer is running on shore/generator power (I have the breaker turned off that powers the ATS), then the neutral would be shared for the inverter and shore power since they end up connected together. Is this a problem? I'm thinking this is what is actually causing the issue, maybe isolating the neutrals would solve the problem and allow me to plug back in the ground wire? I'm thinking the issue is due to the inverter potentially tying neutral to ground internally?


Also, I have not grounded the inverter to the trailer via the extra ground terminal.

[time2roll]

I crammed two relays in one box. If doing this today I would have the smaller TS by KISAE.

http://www.donrowe.com/KISAE-TS15A-Automatic-Transfer-Switch-p/ts15a.htm

[glamisduner]

smkettner wrote:
I ended up with two transfer switches to avoid the subpanel that would be hard to access.
If your loads are light you could just attach both to the one TS direct.

That would work too, but I don't have the space, I could install the other switch elsewhere I guess though, it would just involve snaking some wires under the trailer.

[time2roll]

I ended up with two transfer switches to avoid the subpanel that would be hard to access.
If your loads are light you could just attach both to the one TS direct.

[glamisduner]

smkettner wrote:
So you are going to cut the hot bus bar in the panel?

I was thinking about it. Otherwise it will require tools to get to a seperate breaker.

A separate breaker box is sounding like the only alternative though. Where can I find one? What term do I need to google?

Too bad I can't just mount a new breaker into the ats box, there's plenty of room in there.

Alternarivly I guess I could also put all of the outlets behind one breaker right? It just would limit all the outlets to 15 amps instead of a combined 30, although a combined 30 would trip the main anyways.

I might just do that instead. at least it wood not require tools to get to the beaker if I trip it.

[time2roll]

So you are going to cut the hot bus bar in the panel?

[MrWizard]

Not possible...to isolate that breaker from the panel
You can remove those two wires hots and neutrals
And connect then to the output of an ats
Run new wires from the breakers to one of the ats inputs
And wires from the inverter to the other ats input
Since you have two circuits you really do need a breaker box between the ats output and the two circuits/breakers

Those breakers are physically and electrically connected to the hot buss of the panel, can't be electrically isolated while physically plugged into the panel
Your drawing is a mess, as far as electrical design
You need to redo it using the info you have been given here

Switch only the a/c do not switch inverter dc our converter dc
You cannot feed those breakers from the inverter, it's not possible
You have to use them to feed one input of the ats take the ats output to the actual circuit wires

[glamisduner]

MrWizard wrote:

glamisduner wrote:

smkettner wrote:
Transfer switch will not be able to backfeed the main panel.
You need a subpanel to break out the inverter items.

I don't understand, I don't want it to backfeed the main panel, that's the whole idea of not feeding the main panel with the ats. I just want to run one dual breaker off the ats output. Do I really need a whole subpanel for one breaker?

a box with one or two circuit breakers
can be a sub panel or a switch box, depending on how its wired
coming from the ats to a dedicated circuit Not powered by anything else
it is both a switch box and protected circuit at the same time

a sub-panel in RV context with a generator, shore, and inverter
is s selection of one or more circuts that can be powered by shore/gnerater switched by main ats,
and also powered by just the inverter
in other words that panel has multiple possible power sources
it isolates circuits that will be powered by inverter when other circuits do not have power

for safety things have to wired where there is absolutely no possibly of two power sources being connected to the same circuit
a sub-panel with mechanical interlock allowing only ONE choice, either/or is the safetest way of doing this

an ats choosing between two sources ( the oem breaker panel and the inverter ) can be used, as long as there is a CB between the output and the circuit

i have an ats on my fridge circuit, so it switches to a circuit from the breaker panel when the generator comes on

wiring can get confusing
and sometimes, its not clear what somebody is trying to describe

Indeed it can get confusing. I think you are not understanding my diagram, so it's probably my bad.

I want to isolate the 15/15 dual breaker. So although it is drawn on the main panel (it's current location) I want to isolate this breaker such that it's power source is only the output from the ATS. Thus it can only be powered by one source at a time. It would be nice if I could leave it mounted in it's current location (but separated from the main panel) for accessibility purposes.

If I have to add a sub-panel I won't have easy access to it and it will require tools to get at. That's why I really just want to wire up a 15amp/15amp single breaker without the need for an entire sub panel (or are you saying it would be considered a sub panel anyways?).

The only breaker I need to power using my inverter (and ATS) is for the outlets, and all outlets are on the existing 15/15 breaker.

If your saying what I want is not possible, I'll just run one of the 15 amp breaker outputs circuits to the ATS, Inverter to ATS, and inverter output to what used to be connected to the 15A breaker. But then only 1/2 my outlets will get inverter power.

I would prefer to run output from the main breaker into the ATS, inverter into ATS, and have the output going into a single 15/15 breaker's input though. This would give all my outlets in the trailer inverter power or shore power, and I would not have to remember to flip breakers when starting the generator to charge the battery etc since only the outlets would be wired to the ATS.

So in the end I the question is: Can I power a breaker without a panel or sub panel? Do they make a single 15/15 amp breaker that take in a wired input instead of needing to be attached to a panel?

smkettner wrote:
If the generator is running and someone turns on the inverter they will both feed the same bus and the smoke comes out of one or both.

Yes you could switch some breakers manually but then why bother with the ATS.

If you just need one branch circuit then it could come right off the ATS.
Might get by with two circuits off the ATS depending on loads.

Have you mapped all five circuits?

-------

As for wire I would just use the max that the terminals are rated. I recommend battery cable over speaker wire.

I get my provisions here: http://www.genuinedealz.com/marine-wire/marine-battery-cable

Best value is to have them put the correct battery lug on one end and sealed with heat shrink.

Please read the above. There would only be one power source to the 15/15 breaker at a time. I want a 15/15 breaker (Like I have now) to be powered by ATS output, instead of by the main panel.

I'm not using speaker wire I'm using amplifier wire. Here is a direct link
http://www.knukonceptz.com/mobile-audio/power-wire/kolossus-fleks-kable/sp/kolossus-fleks-kable-4-gauge-black-powerground-wire/

Yes I have mapped all 5 circuits 🙂

[MrWizard]

glamisduner wrote:

smkettner wrote:
Transfer switch will not be able to backfeed the main panel.
You need a subpanel to break out the inverter items.

I don't understand, I don't want it to backfeed the main panel, that's the whole idea of not feeding the main panel with the ats. I just want to run one dual breaker off the ats output. Do I really need a whole subpanel for one breaker?

a box with one or two circuit breakers
can be a sub panel or a switch box, depending on how its wired
coming from the ats to a dedicated circuit Not powered by anything else
it is both a switch box and protected circuit at the same time

a sub-panel in RV context with a generator, shore, and inverter
is s selection of one or more circuts that can be powered by shore/gnerater switched by main ats,
and also powered by just the inverter
in other words that panel has multiple possible power sources
it isolates circuits that will be powered by inverter when other circuits do not have power

for safety things have to wired where there is absolutely no possibly of two power sources being connected to the same circuit
a sub-panel with mechanical interlock allowing only ONE choice, either/or is the safetest way of doing this

an ats choosing between two sources ( the oem breaker panel and the inverter ) can be used, as long as there is a CB between the output and the circuit

i have an ats on my fridge circuit, so it switches to a circuit from the breaker panel when the generator comes on

wiring can get confusing
and sometimes, its not clear what somebody is trying to describe

[time2roll]

If the generator is running and someone turns on the inverter they will both feed the same bus and the smoke comes out of one or both.

Yes you could switch some breakers manually but then why bother with the ATS.

If you just need one branch circuit then it could come right off the ATS.
Might get by with two circuits off the ATS depending on loads.

Have you mapped all five circuits?

-------

As for wire I would just use the max that the terminals are rated. I recommend battery cable over speaker wire.

I get my provisions here: http://www.genuinedealz.com/marine-wire/marine-battery-cable

Best value is to have them put the correct battery lug on one end and sealed with heat shrink.

[glamisduner]

smkettner wrote:
Transfer switch will not be able to backfeed the main panel.
You need a subpanel to break out the inverter items.

I don't understand, I don't want it to backfeed the main panel, that's the whole idea of not feeding the main panel with the ats. I just want to run one dual breaker off the ats output. Do I really need a whole subpanel for one breaker?