"Enhanced" flooded starting batteries for stop start auto

[landyacht318]

Many modern Autos intentionally keep the battery discharged to the point that when the driver lets off the gas, or hits the brakes, the battery can then accept higher amps when the voltage regulator commands 14.5+ volts. This acts as a poor regenerative braking MPG enhancer and a battery that basically is Never fully charged

This results in the continuous partial state of charge cycling of starter batteries, and short lifespans and not long after, whining customers demanding new batteries under warranty which then eats into profits.

Looks like the marketing departments saw something to peck at and perhaps there is some engineering following suit to keep the beancounters from screaming too loud.

Looks like the carbon additive to the plate paste in some modern deep cycle batteries is working its way into the Automotive starting battery world.

For those who do not want to click the below links:

Increased dynamic charge current acceptance over standard wet-flooded batteries (+170%), due to improved design including special Carbon additives and high charge acceptance envelope type separators
Increased cyclic durability over standard wet-flooded batteries (+100%)
Sealed tip/tilt double lid with integrated flame arrestor

Exide invented the first EFB battery in 2008, helping European car manufacturers to reduce fuel consumption and emissions for small to mid-sized cars. Our technology is now considered the most advanced in the industry. The latest-generation EFB battery offers significantly improved charge acceptance and cycle life, a result of key breakthroughs in lead alloys and unique carbon additives that came from our R&D efforts. Exide’s Start-Stop EFB batteries enable Start-Stop, regenerative braking and other powerful fuel-saving features.

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/#efb

http://www2.exide.com/gb/en/product-solutions/transportation/product/exide-start-stop-efb.aspx

If this leads to batteries that are more resistant to hardened capacity destroying sulfation from chronic undercharging, the bane of all lead acid batteries, well mo bettah for us intetionally deep cycling the lead acid beasts and have systems designed for charging this medium.

Argue away.......

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Lighting that flickers when you blink? You don't need light when your eyes are closed.

Because of a failed radiator electric fan motor last summer. I had to start my car 122 times when waiting in line at the border. Yes I kept track of the starts, which included stop lights in the USA. Yes I noted 107F inside the car.

Yes I noted the emergency new battery purchase in October. Yes I noted the emergency new starter motor purchase in November.

This is the best way to summarize the rationale, and methodology of thinking that produces this stuff. YOU deal with the idea that out of control government growth will happen when CARBON CREDITS are traded and taxed. When I mention massive reforestation or severe penalties against countries that **** their rain forests, Washington DC legislators chant TAXES! TAXES! TAXES! Sorry. I quit. I COULD chop down an acre of tropical savannah to make way for solar panels, but I won't. I COULD *** away hundreds of gallons of petroleum annually curing boredom by driving around or not consolidating shopping to one day a week BUT, I DON'T.

"I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left..."

[Harvey51]

Yes, why not have nonvolatile memory? Why do the door locks require power to stay locked? Shouldn’t there be a switch to turn off the feature of having headlights and tail lights stay on for minutes after engine stop?
Why can’t we have % of full charge displayed on the dash of our cars, as we do on RVs at low cost. A display of current draw would be very informative, too; especially if it could be seen when the engine is stopped.

Something is wrong with remote locking, too. A friend had many failures to start the car engine, destroyed two batteries, two mechanics failed to find the problem. It was solved when she replaced the battery in the remote - no more problems.

We have a 2018 Toyota Highlander. While driving I see a maximum of 14.2 volts. It has semi automatic engine shutdown when stopped - I have to hold the brake pedal hard down or it starts again. It never goes on when heater or air conditioning is in use, popping up an environmental comfort error.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

You have given the grumpy can't stand BS fraud Mex a new chew toy 🙂

Straight from the Horse's *****

"The additive will extend cycle life UP TO 115% that of standard mistreated batteries".

OH BOY! Standard Battery lasts 100 cycles. Super duper carbon batteries last 115 cycles.

This is like seeing an expiration date on a bag of salt.

Or seeing 40 point font NO CHOLESTEROL! on a bag of green beans.

They even had the guts to include in the title SMART BATTERY

All for idiocy that does nothing for emissions or economy.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

"It's design concept is revolutionary:
"Proprietary parts and longevity limitations will save an enormous amount of fuel. It will be off the streets for weeks at a time. Just think -- fifty two divided by six. Rejuvenating our underperforming domestic auto parts industry, discounting outsourcing of course"

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Los Angeles. 2022.

I-405

July

Rush hour

Stop, stop stay stopped. Inside of car 117F

More stop. 119F

Then 120F

Babies die

Stop and Die cars are legislated out. Millions in lawsuits.

Forty thousand dollar Preparation H LEMON Flavor

New cars are introduced with $10,000 added on to pay for lawsuits

Does it REALLY take a three-digit IQ to figure this out? Give a lawyer enough rope he'll sell it to you for a million dollars after he mires you in quicksand.

[landyacht318]

The actual stop starting of the engine is not an issue, it is not like the days of old, having to crank for 15 seconds before it would fire up.

But when the start stop modern engine is stopped, the Hvac blower motor is still running, the lights are still running, the stereo is still running, rear window defogger. Other Thats a pretty significant load.

How long do the headlights stay on after the button is pushed to turn of fthe engine. the parasitic loads of door locks, engine comuters, ect are all asking a lot of any battery in any modern vehicle with all the bells ans whistles and butt wiping technology the modern consumer has been trained to not be able to live without.

Todays starter batteriea are getting cycled and we know just how long it takes to top charge a battery.

My 89 with a 318 engine starter draws ~140 amps, but the engine always catches quickly.

Back when my AGm battery was newer I could hold it at 14.7 volts until my ampmeter read 0.0 amps. no doubt it was accepting somewhere around 0.025 amps or less, but that is not germain to this example.

When i would start the engine, and the alternator gets the battery back upto 14.7v, how long would it take for amps to taper back to 0.0? 0.0 amps would indicate the alternator has returned that which was used to start the engine.

So how long did it take for amps to retaper back to 0.0? under 45 seconds. Not 5 minutes, not an hour to replace that which was used to start the engine, but less than 45 seconds. So this chronic short trip driving never being able to return that which was used to start the engine is horse hockey, unless the tris were only 30 seconds long.

But if the battery was at 80% then an hour of 13.6v certainly is nowhere near enough to return the battery to anywhere near full charge

It is a fact that many modern cars, certainly not all, are intentionally cycling the batteries so that the battery is low enough that when the brakes are hit, the voltage regulars demands 14.5ish volts and the alternator must make 40+ amps to instantly bring the ~75% charged battery to 14.7v. This is intentionally cycling the starter battery and intentionally keeping it in a chronicaly undercharged state and if any rv'er were intentioally doing so and saying it was just fine we would all have a conniption and the caps lock button would be on on every response.

If the automakers are demanding a lead acid starting battery which can last through the warranty period in such duty, it is a good thing for us. I do not believe it is a good idea to intentionally keep the starter battery in a constantly undercharged state, but they are trying to meet fuel economy standard regulations, and some new cars are also using 0w-16 weight oils to get that 0.05% more mpg as well, and there are pages and hours worth of arguing on that front regarding any possible benefits of low viscosity motor oils.

These 'ERB' batteries could be just marketing mumbo jumbo, but if it helps starter battery manufacturers to modify a lead acid battery's plates to be more resistant to living their life at partial state of charge, more freaking power to them.

The Firefly Oasis Carbon foam lead acid AGM batteries are apparently performing well in marine uses, living most of their life at partial states of charge. I do not find it hard to believe that whatever they doing regarding the plate material and carbon, is making its way into other lead acid batteries.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I'll give you an example of the cartoon in Sacramento. Half the state burns down. I send letters as an MEE about flammable resin tree limbs being one and a half meters from seventeen Kv distribution lines in Sonoma and Napa counties. Eyewitness cant believe my eyes thickets of live oak too dense to walk through.

Forestry service in Santa Rosa tells me face-to-face "Untouchable" Cannot thin for firewood. Not touchable because of possible legislative protests. Letters to state and senators go unanswered.

The disaster. Then Insurance and Electrical rates are now skyrocketing.

And a person expects me to do something other than sneer at Alfred E Neumann logic of failed lawyers...

[Gdetrailer]

ktmrfs wrote:

people in europe have been doing manual start stop technology for decades. When I've been in europe, even in the late 80's I'd say 90% of the gas vehicles turned off the engine at red lights, then started up when the side yellow came on or the red flashed (indicating green soon). I asked friends that lived in europe about starters and batteries going bad. Look was "what are you talking about?" never did find one that replaced a started in under 100K miles, often never. And batteries were lasting 5-10 years.

Hmm.. Seems to me that majority of the European automobiles are of small displacement engines, something like 2 L or less unlike American vehicles.

Pretty much "apples to oranges" type of comparison.

Takes a lot less energy to rotate a small displacement engine and a lot less wear and tear on starter, battery and alternator..

I do know this, given the exact same engine size between my vehicle and my DW's vehicle and the differences in commute I would have to dispute that no "ill effects" happen with stopping and starting a ICE.

For instance, my commute id 50 miles each way, 100 for a round trip, combination of 75% freeway and 25% city.

My DWs commute is 5 miles each way or 10 miles round trip, rural driving, not freeway or city.

I have no issue getting 13 yrs of service from the factory OEM battery.

DW on the other hand, her vehicles EAT batteries for breakfast, lunch, dinner and for good measure bedtime.. She is lucky to get 2-3 yrs average out of a starting battery.

My drive is long enough to fully recharge the battery, her drive, battery gets depleted each time it is started and 5 miles one way is not anywhere enough to fully recharge the battery each start.

Another observation over time is my Diesel tractor, it USED to eat batteries like candy.

I had a habit of automatically shutting the tractor off every time I got off it to do yard chores like picking up sticks or moving my fire wood via front loader. Often only off the tractor for 5 or 10 minutes each time.

I changed my habit and leave the tractor running all the time when I get off, the only exception is if I am taking a break or it is going to be 15 minutes or longer.

Took me 3 batteries in 4 yrs to figure that out and at $100 each, that is an "expensive" lessen, the amount of fuel I would have used if I left it running would have been far less costly (tractor uses 1 gallon of Diesel per 1.5 hrs at full throttle and load, could have bought a lot of Diesel for the $300 in batteries I ruined).

Each time I started the tractor it times the glow plugs on for 15 seconds before it starts then you have the starter draw on top of that.. There was no way that the alternator would ever make up all of the discharge for those extra starts and eventually the battery would slowly have less starting capability..

If you really think you will save money and be greener, go ahead and try it for yourself.

Myself, no thanks..

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The idiocy that lithium batteries are automotive oriented yet OEM chose some One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest alternative is a perfect testimonial to the mentality. So WHAT if the battery adds a grand to the sticker price. Lithium is perfect for the job and so what lithium is temperature sensitive. Use a super capacitor and then when the engine starts maintain the battery temperature controlled. Computer memory? Does it REALLY need to be volatile?

Someone get a net!

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Thank god I am on the way out. I can tolerate just so much "stupid". People would rather spend four hours commuting solo in a ton and a half vehicle than spend a third that time riding in a 1st class mass transit system.

Invent Monty Python grade band-aids rather than double deck freeways, build new bypass freeways around major cities, and make federal law 100% traffic controlled stop lights everywhere. You can't cure stupid.

[2oldman]

Flooded batteries are on their way out.

[theoldwizard1]

landyacht318 wrote:
Many modern Autos intentionally keep the battery discharged to the point that when the driver lets off the gas, or hits the brakes, the battery can then accept higher amps when the voltage regulator commands 14.5+ volts. This acts as a poor regenerative braking MPG enhancer and a battery that basically is Never fully charged

This results in the continuous partial state of charge cycling of starter batteries, and short lifespans and not long after, whining customers demanding new batteries under warranty which then eats into profits.

I am a retired (12 years) automotive engineer. I worked on Powertrain Control Systems. "Smart charging" System were just becoming "standard' when I retired so things may have changed since then.

#1 smart charging systems goal is to improve fuel economy. #2 is to extend battery life in the midst of multiple short high current loads.

Now a days, voltage regulators are "dumb". All they do is turn on and off (or regulate) the field current at the direction of the PCM. Check any car built in the past ten years. Turn the headlights on for 5 minutes and then start the car. Connect a DMM to the battery and watch the voltage. It will start high (>14V) but over the course of 5-10 minutes it will drop down to <13.5V. This is all being controlled by the PCM.

Many current cars have battery "state of charge" and/or true battery load (current) sensors feeding data to the PCM.

Multiple re-starts from a "start-stop" system will have very little impact on the flood starting battery.

[landyacht318]

Seems like there is acknowledgement that the start stop and manipulation of battery state of charge so that it can accept high amps on demand, is causing premature failure of the warrantied batteries that coe with new vehicles.

We know trojan and likely others are incorporating some carbon into the plate paste to make the battery more resistant to sulfation in partial state of charge cycling.

I see this stop start as a good thing, in terms of attempts to get batteries to outlast their 36 month warranty so that the auto manufacturer need not warranty them.

Starting batteries are now being intentionally cycled with modern vehicles, not just randomly depletion via stereo or lights, then hope 13.8v is good enough to make it last the warranty period.
Vehicles now seek to hold the battery around 12.8v or less driving down the road, and only allow 14+ when letting off the gas or braking.

This equates to intentional cycling and if they are attempting to address partial state of charge cycling so that the battery outlasts the warranty period offfered with the new car, well lets hope there is merit to the carbon plate paste additive.

Or perhpaps there is simply no room for any possible improvement to lead acid battery construction, and this is just more marketing for the masses and max profit.

[ktmrfs]

Gdetrailer wrote:

ScottG wrote:
I thought vehicles that had start-stop capability always used a battery other than their standard starting battery - no?

No.

Basically the vehicle uses a higher capacity starting battery.

I know of a few folks who own these type of vehicles, after going through a couple of super expensive batteries and one also lost a starter, they disabled that "feature".. Some vehicles not easy to disable..

I personally would not not want a vehicle stopping the engine, if stopped and you NEED to make a hasty acceleration to get out of danger there WILL be a delay in the time that it takes for the engine to restart..

Can you get better "economy" by doing this, yes, SLIGHTLY, but at the cost of longevity of the battery, starter and even perhaps the engine it's self..

The BETTER solution to economy is to find ways of reducing stop n go driving. Cloverleafs, round-a-bouts, business bypasses instead of stop light/ stop sign intersections goes a long way in better fuel economy..

My daily commute of 1 hr each way it takes me 10 minutes on a good day to go through 5 stop lights and that is less than a half mile stretch..

people in europe have been doing manual start stop technology for decades. When I've been in europe, even in the late 80's I'd say 90% of the gas vehicles turned off the engine at red lights, then started up when the side yellow came on or the red flashed (indicating green soon). I asked friends that lived in europe about starters and batteries going bad. Look was "what are you talking about?" never did find one that replaced a started in under 100K miles, often never. And batteries were lasting 5-10 years.

[Gdetrailer]

ScottG wrote:
I thought vehicles that had start-stop capability always used a battery other than their standard starting battery - no?

No.

Basically the vehicle uses a higher capacity starting battery.

I know of a few folks who own these type of vehicles, after going through a couple of super expensive batteries and one also lost a starter, they disabled that "feature".. Some vehicles not easy to disable..

I personally would not not want a vehicle stopping the engine, if stopped and you NEED to make a hasty acceleration to get out of danger there WILL be a delay in the time that it takes for the engine to restart..

Can you get better "economy" by doing this, yes, SLIGHTLY, but at the cost of longevity of the battery, starter and even perhaps the engine it's self..

The BETTER solution to economy is to find ways of reducing stop n go driving. Cloverleafs, round-a-bouts, business bypasses instead of stop light/ stop sign intersections goes a long way in better fuel economy..

My daily commute of 1 hr each way it takes me 10 minutes on a good day to go through 5 stop lights and that is less than a half mile stretch..